Every Day Leadership: The Lessons That Shaped Ken Corbie

In this episode of The Corie Sheppard Podcast, we sit with Ken Corbie — musician, educator, and one of Trinidad & Tobago’s most respected cultural voices. Ken takes us through his remarkable journey in music, the mentors who shaped him, and the lessons learned from a lifetime of service to culture and community.

From his early years discovering his love for music, to the people who guided his path, to the relationships and experiences that shaped who he became, Ken shares stories filled with wisdom, humour, and heart. We explore themes of discipline, gratitude, faith, legacy, and the responsibility of carrying forward the values taught by those who came before us.

This conversation is a masterclass in humility and purpose. Whether you’re a lover of music, culture, personal development, or great storytelling, this episode offers inspiration from one of the most grounded and genuine voices in Trinidad & Tobago.

Topics We Discuss

• Ken’s early musical upbringing and first encounters with the artform
• The people who mentored, influenced, and supported his growth
• Lessons learned from a lifetime in music and education
• Stories of discipline, responsibility, and navigating crossroads
• How faith and family shaped his outlook
• The cultural values he believes Trinidad & Tobago must protect
• What legacy means — and how to build it with intention

Hashtags

#coriesheppardpodcast #KenCorbie #TrinidadAndTobago #Culture #MusicEducation #CaribbeanStories #SteelpanCulture #LegacyBuilding #TTMusic

Amazon Link:

https://www.amazon.com/Everyday-Leadership-Lessons-Unexpected-Teachers/dp/1969564016/ref=sr_1_1?crid=3SCKOJA6F7R88&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.r7r8QRpT491kjYHMkE4LdA.LSrz9e_99qx7PQK-YAxGOCgzXtNvNGXKrLDYcYH3enc&dib_tag=se&keywords=kenneth+corbie&qid=1765399332&sprefix=kenneth+corbie%2Caps%2C131&sr=8-1

Chapters

• 0:00 Welcome, Banter, And Book Reveal
• 3:00 Finishing The Book And Imposter Fears
• 6:30 Everyday Leadership: Title And Theme
• 10:20 Sound Rev Origins And Guitar Beginnings
• 17:40 Kitchener’s Tent: Ears Over Notation
• 27:30 Unexpected Teachers: The Pepsi Story
• 35:10 From Music To Coaching: Why And How
• 42:30 Coaching vs Telling: Questions And Listening
• 47:20 Miller Could Cook: Relationship Power
• 57:40 Barrow’s Trust And Real Authority
• 1:06:10 Culture, Integrity, And Open Doors
• 1:15:00 Entrepreneurship: Leaving Corporate And Building
• 1:26:20 Parenting, Fear, And Redefining Success
• 1:36:30 Humility, Origins, And Family Stories
• 1:45:10 Leadership Philosophy: A Kinder Model

Transcript

Corie: 0:13

I gonna tell people I got the author's copy is what I'm gonna tell everybody.

Ken: 0:17

You have the original edition.

Corie: 0:19

Yeah, that's right, that's right. I hope it's accessing questions. Limited edition. Asking questions based on listen. I hope you two think any same thing. Welcome to the Cory Shepherd podcast. Welcome back to everybody who's been listening. Welcome to all the new listeners. Thank you for tuning in. Have with me today. The first guest who was ever on this podcast as the date here as August 20th, 2020.

Speaker 1: 0:39

Serious.

Corie: 0:40

As long as go as that. I don't know. Welcome Ken Kobe to the podcast. In famous words of the youth now happen, Daddy. Everything good? Yeah, yeah, you good, man. I was listening to the beginning of this episode before I come here, right? Right. You want to know what this cause in the room me then? 23 man to me was 28. Who was that? Never. You, but it got never closed. The gap is widened. But that was 2020. That was 2020. But that was COVID. Well, go. Any kind of language.

Speaker 1: 1:14

You should you should know that that was the that was an outlier. Because we had five years, so five years, and that was the only year that I didn't win.

Corie: 1:22

That's not true. I allowed because this year we ain't really pleased, we didn't win.

Speaker 1: 1:27

I didn't come to say any five years.

Corie: 1:29

So you just run and running and running and running. Since I get momentum, you've been hiding.

Speaker 1: 1:33

I'm not the one with the problem with my heel. I am here. I could we could start right now.

Corie: 1:38

Well, let me start. Okay. Anybody have a pack again? Let me start with running to that because nah. I don't think you want to do anything. But I like how we start with running because David started to say you're running. No, no, David said. But this man ain't coming, you know, long David said, but you had to get your father here. We had to hear the backstory and them kind of thing. So the plan today is to get them some backstory, right, David? No, we're here to talk about something special, right? Something special to me. I know very special to you as well. Because I was playing as much card as I could play today, strack you as much as I could from finishing this book. But the man finished your book. Congrats. How's he feeling when you finished?

Speaker 1: 2:15

Man, it's a relief. Yeah. Yeah, it was becoming a bit painful. So I was very, very glad to get over, you know, to buy, you know, past that stage.

Corie: 2:23

And kind of the 80-20 thing, right? It's done for years now, but you have a 20% of it.

Speaker 1: 2:27

You understand? That 20%, you know, and and experiencing the um the kind of imposter syndrome in that 20%. Yeah. Is this book good enough? Will people like it? Will people think I'm bright? But think this guy's not thoughtful enough. Yeah. So that happens a lot, especially when you come down to the end and you want to make sure everything is perfect, right? So um, so it's it's a relief for it. It's get off, get off, get off from the desk. Yeah.

Corie: 2:52

Well, until this morning, I realized what the name of the thing was Daddy Book. Uh-huh. I know the name this morning. I know. Is that right? I say, Pass Daddy Book. You say, Well, who is Daddy Book? I said, Boy, Daddy Book, wait a minute.

Speaker 1: 3:04

The man should not take not a biology book or something like that.

Corie: 3:08

If you know, if you already know. So, name of the book.

Speaker 1: 3:11

Yeah.

Corie: 3:11

Everyday leadership.

Speaker 1: 3:12

Everyday leadership, lessons from unexpected teachers.

Corie: 3:16

Yeah, that unexpected teachers is one that is an interesting theme throughout the book for me. And I well, I guess you had to be an expected teacher. You was not an unexpected teacher for me. But I like that you found ways to work through the journey that you had in several areas of life. Because listening to the whole episode again, one of the things I realized is we ain't talk about nothing, we talk about upbringing and the music. We barely get to where your management is. So for people who'd want to know the early, earliest parts of this story, what are we gonna make them do? Go back to the episode or we're gonna tell them some of it today. Yeah, the show is yours. All right, good. I like that. Finally, something you know, this man finally handing over David. It's good.

Speaker 1: 3:56

But yeah, no, if hold on a minute. I have to take the opportunity before we go into the stories because when we start to talk, we don't ever finish, right? First of all, I want to compliment you on this initiative that you're doing in this podcast. I have this little photo at home, right? Of you at five years old standing on the steps in on Anderson Street with a little white t-shirt, a blue t-shirt, and a white pants, right? You know? Ah, Kim's prep, right? And um and when I see the success of the of the podcast and the success of the initiative and the way that you pour yourself into it, I really go back to that photo. That's a love story for me, yeah. That photo. So I wanted to congratulate you on that. I wanted to tell you if I haven't told you before, that I'm very proud that you're doing it. And I remember when you when you started to work in Sight Up, you said to me that you wanted to find a way to add value. You're looking for how you can add value to this process. And man, have you added value? And this thing is adding value in a significant way, in an exponential way, because all of the people who are going to be touched by this and who are being touched by this podcast as it is, will pass on some of the stories, will you know, will live you know what you are trying to do. They're gonna look up at you, and in a sense, you're an unexpected teacher for millions of people who will watch this podcast. So I'm very, very proud of you, and I want you to know that I love you very much, and then that's from the bottom of my heart. Put this in the end, yeah, yeah, yeah. Put this in the end, right? That is one. And then another thing that I'm very proud of is that today you actually celebrate your wedding anniversary. Now, I don't know which one, huh? Thanks for I do, yeah, yeah, yeah. I just I just letting you know 21, David. I'm giving you a hit today is your wedding anniversary. Justin.

Corie: 5:48

That is love. That is love. Thanks for your mind. That means we're gonna end on time and say people watching the club.

Speaker 1: 5:53

I will finish at any time you decide to stop.

Corie: 5:59

I appreciate that. My name came up in one of these episodes because one of the first questions I start getting about you from the audience was in Colin Lucas's episode. And okay, Colin hosted the book launch. Well, I'll tell people a backstory at that too. We I was carded to post the book launch, and we had a nice little plan. But football combined with 40s and so on is a little kind of different problems, right? So we go one step at a time, literally. It's a little combination, but I'm coming back all around February. I should be back. But I find Colin do a great job. Colin does a great job. Your Colin relationship is something special.

Speaker 1: 6:31

Colin's a natural, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Corie: 6:33

You all have a natural kind of relationship too. So maybe I should start by talking about some of that. Because in your unexpected teachers, one of the things I've always admired in being a dog, and in even that whole episode, I was talking about kind of front row seats are a lot of the things that you were trying to do. And one of those things was Song Rev. You're talking about Kimp's days. I had to be that small, yeah. And hearing some of the loudest things, I never hear nothing so loud as Song Rev band room.

Speaker 2: 6:56

Yeah.

Corie: 6:56

Uh what was your initial entry into Song Rev at that point in time playing music?

Speaker 1: 7:02

You know, somebody asked me that question a while ago, and I couldn't remember at all. Um but Tony Woodruff, who, God bless his soul, died recently, just recently. Um, he gave me the story. He said that Songrev was looking for a guitarist, and he had a friend, a guy called Luke, I don't remember Luke's saying Luke Rodney, he lives in the States now, but he used to do this talk, talk, talk, tock, talk for his mouth. He had a way of doing that. So he was a kind of phenom around the best village area with me, right? And um he asked me whether I was interested in going and playing for this band somewhere in Port of Spain. So I said, well, of course. And he introduced me to Tony. So so Tony had known him, and he's the man who made the connection. So I went down there, and then of course I didn't have an electric guitar. Right. There's no box guitar at all. I walk with my box, and um, and uh Tony said, you know, there was this guy who was migrating and left this um Gibson Les Paul black one. I still have it at home. Yeah, it's kind of like an ornament, but it's they have like that's that's that's kind of how I got in involved in it. That was it. That was it.

Corie: 8:04

But one thing I don't know, maybe it's a selfish question. I never knew how you initially learned to play guitar.

Speaker 1: 8:09

I wonder, I'm wondering if I did.

Corie: 8:12

Colin says, Colin say, Charlie's roots had um who was Charlie's Roots and Junior Warwood. And he said the answer in song rev was Kent.

Speaker 1: 8:22

Colin kind of crazy to compare me with them guys. I mean, I I admire them guys, like I don't know what they was they were so fantastic. But um, I guess it is what it has. I had my own style. I used to listen to Tony a little bit too, right? And I feel like I I I learned some things from him, but he played the way I would play. You know, I guess I used to listen to Kenny Phillips, I used to listen to there's a guy called Kotoy from Santa Cruz. What a nice style. But I had my own vibe, and I think what I do distinctly, I guess you could say is distinct from people like Tony and Junior and the other people.

Corie: 8:56

So um, so yeah, it is what it is. So you're picking up a guitar and just trying out things, that's where it all started. Yeah, look, my dad used to play.

Speaker 1: 9:03

My father used to play. But he used to play a little bit of guitar, he had one or two little chords, and I just started to play. I would take, like, I learned to play the quadruple first. Actually, Poji is the one who taught me my first set of chords on the channel. Yeah, seriously? And used to get vexed every time I couldn't play it. And he'd say, What's wrong with you? Just like no. Just like no, you know, you know, Poji. So, you know, that that that D7 chorded one, this, this one um index finger on the first fret and the first string. That's what I actually started playing the guitar. I would go to the third fret and actually play that. And that was really a G that I was playing there, right? And I used sing a whole calypso with just that one chord that I knew. And then I'd formed the quattro chords on the guitar.

Corie: 9:42

Right, okay.

Speaker 1: 9:42

And that was it. And then the real person who helped me to learn the guitar a bit was a guy called Jeffrey Williams. Jeffrey Williams is a beautiful jazz guitar player. I met him in Best Village, met him at the community center, and Jeffrey gave me this wonderful guitar boy. If you see this guitar man, sound beautiful. There was a, it used to have Nile, um, a steel, what was it called? It's a steel one, but almost like polished. A glossy kind of song, big and nice. And then I lost Jeffrey's guitar. I left it on the step in the community center. Oh, gone. And that was that. But Jeffrey used to come home by me and and he used to play on a Saturday night and thing. And I would I learned some stuff from Jeffrey in terms of the expansion of chords that I learned. You know, some Jeffrey girl from Epanema and One Note Samba and some of those songs with some nice big chords. Yeah, and then that was it.

Corie: 10:30

Yeah, that was it.

Speaker 1: 10:30

I just pick up from people along the way.

Corie: 10:32

Yeah, that's amazing. Because I'm not Colin is not the only person who I hear say Ken with Calypso Soaker guitar, yeah, unmatched. People say that all the time. Yeah, you also spend some time in kitchen tent. How that starts off?

Speaker 1: 10:45

Well, I had a I had a friend who was looking at TST, I was at TST, Berna Woodley. Right. And Bern used to live in Mova. So she didn't drive, so she used to go live with me on evenings. I see pass over the lady young and drop Berner home. So I got one inside hanging out with Berner and thinking about a young fella, I had nothing to do. And but every time I went by Brenner, they used to be playing Calypso. And one day they were jamming this song I'm The Symptoms by Kitchener. And I said, You know, somebody asked me if I played on that record, but her dad used to be home, right? And her dad said, You could play guitar like that. I think it was Kenny Phillips that that put on that track, right? And the symptoms. And I said, Yeah, I could play like I was already playing in Song Rev. And he said, Well, Kitchener looking for a guitar player, so you want to try out fit? I said, Okay, I'm happy for that because listen, it's been my life dream to play. I used to dream about playing for Nelson in particular, but any calypso then would do because I mean Calypso was like in my DNA. So I took the opportunity and I went and I and I got into Kitch tent. That's a whole story by itself. You know, I got into the tent because I couldn't read the music, you know. So um, so I just went, he told me to go and see Kitch. So I went down to it ran Renama this Sunday morning. Now I put my guitar in the car because I heard that these guys could be a little brutal. If they blank you, you don't feel too good about that. So I said, let me not take a chance. So I left the guitar in the car and I walked into the into his porch. Kitsch is in the porch together with pretender, Lord Pretender, Ulrich Farrell. And another guy, I think the guy, his name is his Subrique was S Surpriser. So when I got there, Kitchener said, Um yeah, he said, but well, we will get out. I said, in the car, he said, bring it. So I okay, that was my passport, right? Because now I could go for my guitar legitimately, of course. So I went to the guitar, the the car, took out the guitar and brought it in. Lo and behold, Kitchener didn't say anything to me, just got up and walked inside. He just sit down and play. Play what? And he's gone. He gone. But I figured that he had to be watching or listening, right? Because I wouldn't get any tent unless he approved. So pretender, old pretty, he said, let me see if you could catch me here. And he started up. But that's a mistake he made because that kind of thing, that was my zone. So I started hitting some big fat chords and you know, extensions and stuff. And he said, Don't worry, I go get you in the tent. You know, and um, so we we we did a few songs out there, and and then they told me, I think he, I don't remember who told me, somebody said, Come down to um uh what's it called? Independence club or something like that on Tragorit Road the following Saturday. And as soon as they hit Traggerich Road, you know, a strand cinema was there, there was a club right next to next to that one. So I went there this Saturday, man. I had my guitar. So when I reached there, you know they have these boots that you sit down in, like by some of the big restaurants and stuff. Kitchen one side, I'm on the other side. You know what, you know what they called me to do that Saturday morning? To listen and try out about a hundred men who are trying to get into Kitchener's tent. Unknowns, unknowns, right? You know what the story was? Not one of them got into it. Seriously, maybe because of me. No, because fellas coming now, and I mean I've been accustomed to that, right? I knew what that was like, but so many people, and then these guys come in, okay. See if you can catch me here, but and I fighting up, you know, I'm trying to find the cause, but okay, I have a little bit of talent with where that is um a concern because I kind of accustomed to it. So we play some. But one song, boy, this fella came. I couldn't, I I got tone deaf. I heard so many songs before. I don't know whether men sat in an F G minor, whoever. Well, they don't, they have no clue. But then Kitchener said, What kind of musician you go you're gonna make? You you you can't hear that's a a minor seven. That is when I had respect for the man, you know. Because he knew what he was doing, you know. When eventually, I didn't know. I I I went now. My uncle, Uncle Carol, that is one of daddy's brothers, was playing sacks in the in the tent. So I kind of waited to find out if I got through this. Tell me the next date is the rehearsal. Sunday morning rehearsal up um up higher Henry Street, close to opposite spectacular. Boy, I reached there and I played through a whole rehearsal, but nobody and tell me if I don't know if you enjoyed it. So I boy, I'm nervous as I don't know what I mean. I'm 20 years old. Right? So I'm nervous as that. So I I I took the opportunity, I saw Kitchener walking on a staircase. I follow him down the staircase. Now I know if to call him Mr. Kitchener. So I said, excuse me. Excuse me. I didn't say Mr. Kitty. I said, um, I just wanted to know if I if I'm playing, you know. He said, You, you, you, you, you, you, you, you playing, man. You, you, you play. You, you, you, you're the only decent fella in the tent. Because you know, it's only police that playing in the tent. All the brass line, the brass players are police officers, some of the drummers, everybody they come, they come from the police band and stuff. And they play, you know, and they're easy. It's a tough crowd to be in.

Corie: 16:29

It's something I always wondered about because if you're in reading music, then you're as good as it is. Because I go, we talk more house-to-house paranormal, right? I see you paran for years, and one of the things I always used to marvel at is we will pull up somewhere, right? People done playing already. My quarter all over the place. It's in tune with itself, much as for an instrument. Yeah. And I would see you go in there, listen, bam, bam, bam, bam, bam, and you play it. I'd wait till it stops. You tell me, right? Come here. This right, right. Uh, where that air develop, where where you just listen?

Speaker 1: 16:57

That's a real, that's a real good. I I don't know. I just think it's a it's an innate thing, it's a talent. It it because the family, if you think about it, right? Some families don't have music at all, you know. And some families do. And our family has a tradition of music. I don't know much further back than my grandfather. But my grandfather used to play the violin and used to go to weddings and all that and play. So the music thing seems to be a gift in the family. And I think the a musical air is definitely a gift. You can't teach somebody that.

Speaker 2: 17:25

Well, I know.

Speaker 1: 17:26

Yeah, you can't teach somebody that. You know, you have a musical ear, either you have that or you don't have it. And I guess that's one of the gifts that that I have. I can hear this stuff. No, you have to know a little bit too.

Corie: 17:36

Yeah, well, of course.

Speaker 1: 17:37

Even though I wasn't able to read notation, I could read the chords. I knew the chords that I was playing. And if you tell me to play F sharp or F minor or something, I I could find it on the guitar in a couple places. So I knew that. So, but because I had so much practice at home from parang, from the days going out with Carl and Daddy, I for me, these calips, especially calips are not very difficult, yeah, because the fellas tend to play within six or seven chords that you're gonna hear in in different arrangements, right? So once I hear it, I know where it is, and I and I could go. Some of them were troublesome. Look, I'll give you a story about one. Boy, there was this one guy who had a the first music sheet I actually looked at, right? The name of the song was Kaufman, right? Kaufman, right? Corey, I so intimidated, boy. How I going to play this? Because if you see the chords have all kind of flatted this and and and thirteen something, I never even heard of some of them things, right? And it it just put the light uh how we think about um things that we don't know, and we think it's all glamorous and it's all big and it's happening, right? So this guy created this song. You want to hear a little bit of this song? Yeah, the chorus was about a man who was coughing. And the fella started by saying the whole chorus is coughing, right? And it was unbelievable that this man now, when he sang it, I realized I could play that. But when I looked at it on the sheet, it looked so sophisticated. That's the lie I'm talking about. The reality itself is not as hard as it as it looks, you know, when you do it. But it's just that this man went to all this trouble to get somebody to write this music to sing and come off. It's the most amazing thing that looks so for your money. When I realized that, that was my entry into the tent, you know. That was my comfort zone. I said, This ain't as serious as I take in it. It's not as serious as I'm taking it. I'm stressing over having to play all these chords, and then look what this man's singing.

Corie: 19:47

Yeah, from Jenny Listener. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1: 19:50

Yeah, not just that, but the the the the the the fact that what he's singing doesn't make any sense, right? But all this fantastic music behind it, a qualified man. And write this thing. And if you see your other thing looking on that piece of paper.

Corie: 20:02

But he was in the tent.

Speaker 1: 20:03

He he never got to sing. Oh, he never got to sing. What happened? He got to rehearse. He got to practice, you know, because on that Sunday morning.

Corie: 20:11

Outside of the experience by strand with nobody in game. Yeah. Rehearse. Solar next cut again. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1: 20:17

You could be a substitute. So you could play. You'd be on the bench. But you're gonna come out on the day that they're practicing his song, just in case, right? So musicians could get a little bit familiar with your music and stuff. And you, um, but he he never got. And every day that I was sorry for him today on this situation, because every day that man came, and if you see his clothes, man, that man had a long, he used to want to dress like Duke, and he had all his things in a nice bag, and he walk in that bag every day. But music is a vicious environment, boy.

Corie: 20:47

Yeah, there's a story in the book because when they talk about unexpected teachers, it reminds me of a part of the book I was reading where you're um you're you're comfortable, you're confident playing the guitar. Yeah, you say you had a music teacher who just hand you have different instruments.

Speaker 1: 21:00

Yeah, that was Roland Gordon. Right. That wasn't that was a music teacher in Belmont. Uh huh. That's that's Chucky's dad. Right. Chuck Gordon, yeah. And we were playing, I think we took, I think it was Barrier.

Speaker 2: 21:10

Right.

Speaker 1: 21:11

Um, he had asked me to come and play for Barrio for one of their best village performances. And I went there, boy, and just before we start the music, he's about to start play quiet and nice lights on and all that. And all of a sudden I see him, and I'm in the back. But he was supposed to be singing, but he would usually play the double bass. He would stand with that bass and play it, wherever he is, right? And I saw him coming towards me as just before we started to sing. Oh, what's going on, you know? Then he said, he just took the guitar and he handed me the bass. So I don't know where's the plan. He didn't say anything, and he went back up in front. Next thing you know, man, jamming guitar there, you know, the song done.

Corie: 21:50

So he could play guitar, he's a easy.

Speaker 1: 21:52

He could play a lot of instruments. He could play, he could play guitar, drums, sax um, uh trumpet, keyboard, all kinds of things he could play.

Corie: 21:58

But he decided to take any of yours that day.

Speaker 1: 22:00

But he take my guitar that day because he was that was the plan. I had learned the song and he handed me this big double bass, and I didn't know what to do. And you know what I did? Nothing. Right? I didn't play a note. Boy, I was so nervous. Nervousness is a real terrible thing, you know. Right? I was so nervous, I couldn't even think on the spot in that moment. Again, I mean, I was about 18, 18 years old, right? And I'm standing with this big bass there. And I couldn't play the bass, never touched the bass before. But I was always intimidated by the bass, yeah, because there was a guy called Earl Nice who had an orchestra as well. He used to play um the flute and thing. And I heard him play the bass. I thought fantastic. But it's just as an imposing thing because like one string on the bass is about four times the size of one string on my guitar. Right? And no frets. And no frets. So you have they can't afford to make a bass. I don't want to unspoly people think. You know, so that man dressed me down because of that when he came back, boy. He said, He said, What kind of musician you are? You mean to say you didn't play a single note? Yeah, yeah, nah, boy. But that was that that that was a story about initiative, really. You know, that was a story about how fear could inhibit the sense of initiative. Yeah. To be able to do something different, to try something new, you know, and in the moment, and and somebody told me, well, you know, you did the right thing because you couldn't go and spoil the thing. And while I hear that, I feel like if I've seen people in some some situations where they try to overcome their fear by trying something new itself. And once you start to try it, try something new, you develop some confidence that maybe I could do this, right? So it may not have been the place to do it, but what it said to me is that the next time I see a bass standing up there, don't be too intimidated by it. Pick it up and see if I could do something with it.

Corie: 23:49

Well, now we know from playing music with you, you're gonna try something. I ain't seen it with no instruments and you ain't gonna try something, but it's just a parallel in them two things. And funny how you see leadership lessons in that because even with Kaufman, you watch the paper, but you listen, you realize you you could take you probably in bump for the paper after that point. Yeah, because I heard that story, and I always interpreted that as um you had to be real confident in your plane to switch that and hand you. Yeah, so I just remember you're talking about that story, and I was thinking he probably feels because I feel like it's a little music. I feel any people are playing music, you could play me a care what they're playing. You think you will play, yeah, and I figure out something when you start to play. Yeah, but um, I wonder if you ever saw it as that, as him have any confidence in the hand in there that's yeah.

Speaker 1: 24:34

Actually, I wrote about it like that in the book. I said maybe he had the confidence that I could do it. You know, he's like the way I played, right? So he felt, you know, he didn't know that part of me that I would be I'd freeze. Yeah, I guess we live if we live and we live, right? Yeah, but he didn't know that. So he had an expectation that I would I would do it. He might have seen me before try calypsos that I didn't even know. I would try, I would say, but I have more confidence when it came to that because I know a lot of calypsos. So I had real had sung so many of them, hundreds of them. I if if that's the amount you might be able to tell me. Hundreds. Yeah, so you know, so I might have been able to easier move into that if it was a calypso. So he just did what he had to do.

Corie: 25:12

Yeah, got you. So is it in reflection that you see leadership lessons and those things to come in your book, or is it in the moment you see in some of them things?

Speaker 1: 25:20

Yeah, well, I I didn't see it at the time, right? But now, because I'm a lot more reflective now, my whole life is about being reflective, it's about reflection, but stepping back and looking at what has happened to me and what are the lessons that that that I could learn from it. And what's interesting is that even when I when I wrote the book and I I was really struggling to find the title. I didn't write this book in an organized way where I knew everything up front and stuff. I didn't know anything. As a matter of fact, I have more insights about the book. Having written the book, I have more insights about it than when I was actually writing it. I see. Yeah. So the unexpected teacher came about because there were some teachers who I was writing about in the book, like like Dr. Bernard and Mr. Gordon. But there were a lot of other people who I learned and who I think had rich lessons to give who were not teachers. And that's why I said unexpected teachers. And then I found out after um reading the book myself and reflecting on it after it was published that the unexpected teachers go much, much deeper than that. It's uh, and I'll give you a story of what I mean by it if you would allow it. You would allow it? Of course. Okay. So just staying with the with the with the narrative of Mr. Gordon, that night that we played, right? That was uh a preliminary. We went to Queen's Hall to play in the finals. And when we got there, we we had to wait behind a lot of other choirs, groups were there before us, right? And the pulling number now, we last. We perform around 12 o'clock, right? But we're there since in the morning, and your boy is hungry, yeah, right? Really, really hungry after lunch. You know, when you're 17 years old and thing and you're hungry, it's different, you know. Now you know you have to wait. But at 17, you feel you deserve to be eaten. You know, somebody's stopping me from having a meal right now, you know, and it's you. So we finished, and it was at Queensall, right? So we at the back of the hall. You know how Queensall is a lot of bamboo and stuff around the place, and they put up this tent on a table. And there was this guy who like his job was to share food. So they have food and boxes for everybody. So I'm excited to find that okay, I'm gonna get something to eat now. Boy, I stood up next to this man. This man is this man is here, and I'm here. And that man passed boxes over my head in front of me, behind me, on the other side, and he called in him. Say, Joan, this is yours. That's yours. You know, food done. And I get hanging on. Well, you can imagine, yeah. Yeah, I'm still yeah, and so at that time I might have said some things to him or behaved in a certain kind of way, right? Somebody came and brought give me a Pepsi. You know what I did? I sky that Pepsi in the bamboo, right? I fell that Pepsi in the bamboo, boy. I was so angry. Yeah, Mr. Gordon noticed that that was happening, right? So he came across to me and he said, You used to call me Rudolph at the time, right? Kenneth Rudolph, right? He said, Rudolph, you see what you did there? Don't ever let me see you do that again. He said, Next time, step back and take a good look at the person who is making you behave like a victim. Trust me, Corey. That was a life lesson that never left me. So the sort of sense of the anesthetic teachers is layered, right? So let me go to the first layer, right? I didn't really get that fully at that time, but I got it long after. Don't become a victim because of somebody else. You stay true to who you are, right? And I saw the guy as a victim. I saw the guy as a as a as a tyrant. Yeah, because you know the way he looked, he looked like a spranger. This was a spranger sharing food, right? And he was handing out to all his friends, and that's how I felt about it.

Corie: 29:10

I personalized it.

Speaker 1: 29:12

I I I very much personalized it, right? But the lesson was don't let that person make me behave like a victim. And victim behavior is when you start pointing your fingers at everybody else as if they're doing something to you. The truth is, he would have done that to anybody. And when I, you know, in reflection, I had to ask myself, wait a minute, you haven't thought about this man's experience. This man has all the makings of a sprung. I mean, I mean it, right? He wouldn't be the one who I would ask to share food in our house. But the standard in our house was that always that we served our guests first, right? We never we would remain, we would wait for last. And because to me, that standard is right, this is what I learned. That's how my family grew up. It has to be right for everybody. Yeah, it has to be right for everybody. How could he not know that? How could he not know that? But the fact is, he didn't. He may not have had the the the life experience that I had and the upbringing that I had. And what was even more important was that he um he this might have been the only opportunity for him to display leadership, to display importance, to have a sense of value to the team. So that man was really he was into it, you know. He was saying you Joe, he was making sure that he protected all his the people in the choir that he knew. He didn't know me. I never interacted with him before. So as he can say, he don't care. Right. But I had to then reframe the way that I was seeing this incident. And the reason that I call him an unexpected teacher is that the very existence of this story in my life is the platform for which I learn and I can share with other people the whole idea that I can reframe the way that I think about it, that perhaps I could look at the man with empathy rather than with anger. But his existence in my life, not the fact that he taught me anything, you know. The encounter itself is an unexpected teacher.

Corie: 31:17

Yeah, it's not altered. Like, well, first, because I could visualize you're flinging that Pepsi in the bamboo. Like when you say that, I seen that I could see it happen. You know, I can't see it. What?

Speaker 1: 31:26

I can't see it.

Corie: 31:29

But the thing about it is it's so interesting when we could choose our reaction to what happened. Yeah, because you could have used that Pepsi or somebody, you know, so sometimes you're hurting yourself. Hurt yourself, yeah, yeah, yeah. And when you started by talking about sightup, one of the things I saw you do recently is uh in recent years was kind of step back from sight up and start your own coaching company. I wonder how stories like these affect the way you approach coaching. Now, you know, I'm gonna say the name of the company is Daddy Coaching Company, right? Name again.

Speaker 1: 31:57

Kenneth R. Kobe executive coach.

Corie: 31:59

Good. So executive coaching, you have been coaching uh, well, as his name suggests, executives. But when I hear every time I talk to your bosses, I'm impressed by the the caliber of people that you coach and their roles and responsibilities and some of the problems that you help walk them through. Stories like those, or you identifying these things from several parts of your past, they applied in your coaching.

Speaker 1: 32:23

But this is coaching itself, right? In a sense, right? I mean, there are other things, but the fact is that I've told a lot of these stories to a lot of people who have coached, and you could see, I could sense the relatability of this story. People could could connect with it because that story of the man, everybody has had an experience like that. And they may have been looking at it through the same lenses that I looked at it at mine at the time. And so when I say to them, you know, maybe you could reframe that, it's an aha moment. So I could see people taking that and then extrapolate that into other situations in in the life. So all of the stories that I have here are stories that I shared with people along the way in the coaching as part of the coaching process.

Corie: 33:00

What made you decide that you wanted to do coaching in the first place? You was running business, things was going good. What made you decide that Samia wanted to do?

Speaker 1: 33:07

Well, you know, you wouldn't believe who really was the impetus for coaching. The whole accountant we had, Wayne Wood.

Corie: 33:14

Are you serious? Yeah.

Speaker 1: 33:15

Wayne came to me and they said, Have you have you considered coaching? Right. You know he is, right? And uh and he actually came to me.

Corie: 33:23

Yeah, as a career. Right, exactly.

Speaker 1: 33:25

Because the thing is that I when I was um I was looking at the horizon, right? I'm kind of coming to close to 60. I was about 50 something, and I'm saying to myself, I kind of keep doing working like this, you know, this is crazy. I was working at that since I was 19 years old, right? And you know the way I used to work, right? It was like all in. Uh so I said, I did need to do something different. So um, so Wayne suggested that, and he even brought for me uh a flyer, I think, with um information about shipper coaching. So I I followed it up and I went and I got the the shipper certification. But because I was concerned about how I'm gonna make that transition into retirement and what would I do. But but I mean, more more so I wanted to um, I I always saw coaching as something that would help my spirituality, right? And at that time I was getting deeper into my spiritual life, right? And when I read about coaching, I would hear that you as a coach, you kind of have to get your head in the right place before you try to help people. And I was really interested in that. You know, how could I become grounded and quiet and you know, fulfilled before I give myself to somebody who would want to listen to what I have to say or you know, to be inspired or guided by me.

Corie: 34:39

It makes sense because when you first said shopper, well, you know, the first thing I see is how expensive, no, no, no, it was an investment. Yeah, but I think the when you say spirituality, it makes sense because the shopper's story is one of mountain climbing. That calls for a lot of of that too. The people would have gone to Everest and so on.

Speaker 1: 34:55

Yeah, well, they they observe the um the shipers who help people to climb the Himalayan mountains, and they use some of the Shopper analogies. So you you you have a you have mountains. So when I teach people how to um set expectations and manage expectations, it's expectation mountain or accountability mountain, you know, that kind of thing.

Corie: 35:14

Understood. So when you because again, having a front row seat for you saying, like I talk to people about getting us out of the mud and starting like lecturing entrepreneurship. So I use you as an example all the time. Yeah, I've seen many times in your life where you well, from the time you start to talk about things, I get frightened immediately. I know something's going on and happen, except card really. But most of the time, when you when you say you have an idea for this, I remember when you're talking about coaching as an idea. Yeah, and I remember my immediate thought then was that's what you've always been doing. Because we've had several iterations of sites upstarting from you alone to getting staff and to bringing me on board. And yeah, I don't think it ever at a point, even down to the end. When I say the end, when you when he decided to move away and focus on coaching, yeah, I don't think he ever really stopped coaching people. So I wondered if that was something that maybe maybe Wayne saw. And the question was also why then get certified in it? I find you're good at it already, you know.

Speaker 1: 36:10

Nah, nah, this certification was absolutely necessary. It was yeah, because you see, the kind of coaching I used to do before wasn't coaching. Yeah, right. Because coaching is a kind of inquiry, you know. Coaching is not telling. And I was at master telling, I could tell everybody what to do. Right. You know what I mean? I always know the damn answer for the thing. But um, but that's not what coaching is. Coaching is really is is guiding, but guide, but but first of all, allowing people to come up with their own answers for the challenges and stuff that they have, right? But the the the what you have to learn is how to how to ask questions. I mean, I think if I learned anything, it's two things I've learned in the coaching process is really becoming good at asking questions and becoming good at listening, dropping my own frame of reference. It I do go back some, you know, fall back from time to time where my opinion becomes important. But that's just a reset that I have to make. My important my opinion is not important in the coaching process. Right. It is really all about the person who is who is being coached. So you have to listen a lot and to listen well. I think the tool you have is questions.

Corie: 37:13

Makes sense, makes sense. It brings me back to a part I was reading where you were talking about um going in as a young manager. And the thing about it is again, I get a front row seat to some of this. And keep in mind, too, that it's not until I reach 30 something, maybe even late 30s, that I adding up you was 21 when you was doing this, or 23, or 20. Yeah, it's really, really young when you look back at it. Yeah, because you're telling a story about working in a service center in a company and going and feeling like you have the answers, very different to what you say now in terms of questions. And one of these statements has stood out a lot. I mean, especially the way you paint the pictures in the book, because when I read in these things, I can't help but place myself there. Right. So now I feel I know where the bar is, you know, and we should go there.

Speaker 1: 37:55

But that was a success then.

Corie: 37:57

Great success. Yeah, but I remember you saying that you came in and you had you knew what you had to do, the mandate was clear. Yeah, you were approaching it with seriousness as you typically do, and you eventually make a line. I'll let you tell the story. But the part that stood out to me was the fellow saying, Boy, Miller could cook. We don't know what you just do, all you just do is talk about work. Yeah, yeah, you can tell us about how you landed there.

Speaker 1: 38:21

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I had a conflict with Miller, guys, Walston Miller. He was a supervisor, and when I came into the company, I was his manager.

Corie: 38:28

Keep in mind, I shocked when I read this. I know I know you and Miller's partner.

Speaker 1: 38:32

Well, all right. You knew him after the fact, right? That was after the transition. Right. Because before that, we couldn't sell losses at all. And you know, this this happens to people if this really, you know, people go into an organization and there's somebody, there's always someone in an organization who rubs you the wrong way. I don't know why. Maybe that's just your opportunity to find that bridge, right? Right. To love. But that was my bridge right there. Because Miller was a guy, a hands-on guy. He knew how to fix fridges and stoves and that kind of thing. I didn't know anything about that, but I knew a little bit about how to organize and how to manage and lead people and stuff, right?

Corie: 39:07

What age you might be then?

Speaker 1: 39:09

30, 30 something, early 30s, somewhere there. Right. And um, so when I went in there, of course, there's a lot of resistance because they're gonna move the service center from one place to the to the to the next. And Miller didn't like the idea that they sent somebody to do that. I mean, I went in as a management trainee, actually, into the company. Um international company, big branding and all that kind of thing, right? You know, so your boy jumped on, even though I was a manager before, I jumped on the opportunity to. Okay, big up, bigger. Yeah, yeah, bigger opportunity, more money, etc. So, um, so when I went there, of course, there's a lot of resistance from Miller. Things are in a mess, right? In a mess. I mean, from an administrative standpoint, plus the service levels are way down, right? Not where we want them to be. And this is a big brand that we're trying to build um loyalty and stuff with customers. So We had fights every day, man. Every day was a drama. But one of the some of the guys were recognizing that this was happening, right? A lot of them were loyal to Miller. They were technicians and stuff, right? Everybody hand dirty. Mind clean, and they're vexed for that too. So one day one of the guys said to me, Listen, boss, you never even come and take a drink with the boys, man. You know, we always go long there on a Friday evening. I said, you know what? I must go. But I was so um into what I was doing and so attached to the results that I was trying to get in the organization. It was all about me, right? So anyway, I went and we drinking on stuff, friendly drinking start, and I I could take a couple of drinks too. And then this guy said to me, He said, Boss, you know what's the difference between you and Miller? I said, Where's that? He said, Miller could cook. You talk about an unexpected lesson that landed. I didn't take long before I realized what was going on there. That one I think I got. Miller used to carry them coral, right? Miller used to take them coral on a Saturday sometimes. Bubble a pot, he could have cooked too. He was a good soup man and all of that kind of thing. But Miller knew their children, he knew where they live, he knew the one that's been up in Paramount, he could find them anytime. He was godfather for two, three of them children and all that kind of thing, right? Look at the difference, right? So a lot of us go into leadership roles and we believe that it's all about our technical competencies and things, have zero to do with it. Because the fact of the matter, you can find anybody to do an engineer. Anybody could be that. You just have to go to school for a few, you don't even have to be good. Because I know some professionals who scrape through the examinations and just a couple marks above the 50% or whatever, and they got through. It's really all about when you when we talk about management and leadership, it's about people, it's about learning how do you move and influence people, become a good influencer. People, it doesn't matter how much you know. And there's this old saying people don't care how much you know unless they know how much you care. And so, as a leader, your real role is to go in there and show you care. And I didn't show that I cared. I was I what I cared about, you see the numbers that the company asked me to put together. And I didn't realize that if I built the relationship with Miller and his team, if I was humble enough to listen, if I was humble enough to go in there and acknowledge what Miller was doing or what he was attempting to do, because he must have been doing something, then I would have the discretionary effort of the whole team of people that I had in front of me to work with me, and life could be easier. This is serious. A lot of leaders I know really believe that they have to be strong technically and know how to push people so they they focus on force rather than on power. Yeah, you know, force rather than on power. Power is influence. You know, so once he said to me that that that message, I understood I needed to go by the bar a little bit more often. Yeah, but but still keep psychological distance with them so that I could call them accountable without having to compromise myself, right?

Corie: 43:04

Yeah, yeah, and I guess sometimes you focus, you know, it reminds me of UE a lot because there's like I do management bachelors, yeah. And um I can't remember, I don't pay attention in class neither, I could tell you that no, I don't know yellows teaching, but I don't remember lessons like those much. It was so task-focused, yeah, so that it was marketing and accounting and operations, and so that when you graduate, I meant a graduate at what 22, 23, you're feeling like you want to go somewhere. And it you see that critical analysis that you is teaching. Um I feel we should just try to look at refrain it because what I realized is that uh it almost forces you to go into situations easily identifying all the things that are wrong with this thing. Yeah, all the things that I would do differently if I was in charge and I would apply because I know the theory. Right. And somewhere along the way, you kind of assume that the man who hand dirty, yeah, you don't know the theory, yes. And that's that's that's who you need. Yeah, I do remember you talking about uh as a sort of a contrast to that. And you said that you and Mela get good after that, right? You start getting closer and working in one accord. Yeah. But I do remember you talking about uh Barrow as being a different type of leader, yeah. Maybe applying some of the things that you were working toward at the time.

Speaker 1: 44:16

Yeah, well, Barrow was my my general manager, but that was at when I was at TST. Right. I mean, you know, Barrow, it's a great um segue that you took there to Barrow because Barrow was the exact opposite of what I was being when I went into the organization. Barrow never talks to anybody about his his competencies, you know, right? His technical competencies, you know. His behavioral competencies are so strong. Right? Communication, he understood that to be to be important. Trust, he understood that to be important. So when you worked with him, you knew that you were dealing with somebody who trusted you. He wasn't trying to do your work for you, you know, partner. He wasn't coming and giving you a suggestion every day about how you could do it. When you go to him with a problem, he didn't solve the problem for you. Barrow made sure you had the critical, the capacity to think critically about it. And what he did that was through a coaching process of asking you questions. He would drill you. He always had another layer of questions to ask you so that you can think. And it is that process that helps you to really come to realizations, right? But what you could do, what you could do different on what you need to do to be able to solve and navigate the problem. And I think it's a very, it's uh, it's a sweet feeling inside when you work with somebody you realize that will give you the opportunity to come up with your own answers. You know, if you've never experienced that, uh according to call it half your life gone.

Speaker 2: 45:34

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1: 45:34

You have to be to work with somebody who trusts you implicitly and will give you the opportunity to do it. And I saw I saw Barrow do that. I mean, I have a little story in in the book about that, where there's this lady who came in when I was in charge of the stores, I was in charge of the retail stores, right? And um, there was a problem with her phone. And she said she she went, she was a police officer and she said she wanted to get a new phone. She knew she didn't care. Whatever the story is, give me a new phone, right? Now um I was new, so I didn't know whether I had the authority to change phones like that, or you know, what the company policy was still learning that. But she made it clear to me that she knew Barrow. And if she don't get a new phone, she's gonna go to Barrow. So, well, you boy, when I'm in a leadership role like that, I I could be a little bit manish, you know, because I have a lot of confidence in myself when it comes to leadership, right? That doesn't mean I do it right. I just I have the confidence. But um, so I went to Barrow and I said to me, you know, Mr. Barrow, I really happy to be on your team and stuff, but I want to let you know that any decision that needs to be made around a customer or any product that we sell, I have a feeling I could make that decision, you know. So I want to take that off your shoulder. I don't want you to have to worry about customers, and if customers have problems, you see, I I good with that. That was it there. So, you know, um, so but I I went back eventually. I I I I think maybe the phone was was changed or something like that. But she never really had to go to Barrow because Barrow had an expectation. I thought I might have been saying something new to him, but that wasn't new to him. That's exactly you solved that problem, and not at any time in my three or four years working in that organization that Barrow ever get involved in any issue whatsoever that I had the authority to make a decision about. None, none. And and and so for his managers, that doesn't mean he was hands-off. He wasn't hands-off at all, he was very hands-on, but he respected the fact that there is an expensive process to hire senior managers. You have all kinds of psychometric tests and simulations and assessment centers and all of that. Why do you need to come and manage the person and manage their work when you you've paid to select those people?

Corie: 47:52

Yeah, of course, of course.

Speaker 1: 47:53

So his he, I mean, he he had the power of the pen. And therefore, if you're not performing, if you violated his trust and you knew his expectations because he said them very clearly, then he could use the power of the pen. You know, but he wasn't a smothering kind of leader who has to see everything, approve every line, um, you know, sanction every promotion, sanction everything. You know, it's um it's it's a very tiring way to work. And and sometimes not just the leader, the leader burns out. Yeah, but you have a bunch of tired people working with you.

Corie: 48:26

That's right. So just one more question on unexpected teachers. The the the the because I when I read it, I kept going back in my mind to okay, you are identifying several parts of or people who become unexpected teachers, even in in personal life. You can remember one story about uh another parent in the school who you learned a lot from. Yeah, yeah. And I wonder if it is not due to your willingness to be unexpected students or continuous students in whatever situation you're placed in, because there's one story in the book about Ben, it's fascinating. It's like you have somebody like Barrow who might be a sweet spot for leadership. I know it came after.

Speaker 2: 49:05

Yeah.

Corie: 49:05

But what happens when I am this continuous student who uh I looking out for unexpected teachers, yeah, and then you find some people who like in that organization, it had to be a culture, it can't be just one person where you're being insulted, you're being accused of things, and they're being undermined, because there's one part that you said um they were going to people who were reporting to you to ask them if you're taking kickbacks and that kind of thing. What is that like for you? Because you you you you are sponge in every other part of the book. Yeah. So how come you didn't take that part and implement that when you're when you're doing your leadership?

Speaker 1: 49:36

Well, it is implemented. The idea is, and the lesson in it for me is that I don't treat people like that. You understand what I'm saying? It was a lack of trust. If I get your question right, it was a lack of trust. They were behaving in the same way. Yes, I see them as unexpected teachers, but I see the situation as an unexpected teacher. So the lesson that I take away from it is that I could be a different kind of leader. I could, I could have somebody on my team who I can support. As a matter of fact, I believe that as a leader, my job is to support the people who uh uh the one-dongs from me. My job is not to allow people at levels below them to bypass them, which I write about in another chapter. I think that one is about um I don't remember the name of the chapter, but you might have read that one as well. The open door. Open door policy. This ridiculous open door policy that people could just come to you at any time. So all of those, like the experience with Ben, right, taught me that the open door policy could be a very dangerous thing. Because the existence of that open door policy is what allows him to, and that culture to denigrate in such a way that he can go to somebody who's reporting to me and tell them, don't give me support or something like that. In an environment where trust is high, where the open door policy is done with integrity, even the person who the senior manager is saying that to would find that to be very weird. Right? They might go to HR with that and say, This can't be real because this is not the norm. But we have allowed as leaders companies, you know, to become toxic by normalizing that that kind of behavior.

Corie: 51:10

Like it stood out when you said there was one guy who was uh reporting to you. When they asked him about it, he said, hey, it's our two honest people in this place. What was his name again?

Speaker 1: 51:19

I think that was that was Buzz. Yeah, he's a big deal. But of course, I didn't I hear the names of the Buzz. But I got to do it. No, but I can talk about I can't talk about who the person is, but I can tell it as Buzz. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And you know what was interesting, right? He said, and this happened in the same day, two people. One guy came to me and said, Hey, you know, director called me and asked me if you and the service provider in cahoots. And I was like, these people crazy. I mean, the one thing that I've always done is to protect my integrity when it comes to things like that. Because my father told me something once, I and I even forgot to put it in the book, right? I was a purchasing officer as a young guy in the telephone company. And my dad worked in the telephone company too. And he came across to me one day at lunchtime and he said to me, He said, I would never be seen. He was uh one of the kind of like early people in the credit union movement in in TST. And he he said to me, I help a lot of people to get loans, and I will never be seen having lunch with one of them. I will never be because you have to be seen to be above the free, right? Be above the kind of behavior that we criticize people for, taking kickbacks. He said, I don't want people to feel that the reason I help you get a loan is so you could take me to lunch. And I always remember that. And so I think I came in with the highest integrity, so it was so offensive that they could kind of try to snare me with that kind of that kind of reputation. Yeah, you know, but my team knew me for who I was, and one man, um actually, one man said to them, That man, he's the first manager write me a warning letter because we were fighting, right? But that's an honest man. And Buzz, Buzz's response was really interesting. He said, Listen, there are two honest men in this company, right? And the two honest men didn't include the director he was talking to. Yes, himself and you, he said, he said, me and Ken Corby, the two most honest men in this company.

Corie: 53:15

It speaks to the culture, you know?

Speaker 1: 53:16

Yeah, it does.

Corie: 53:17

It's an interesting thing that happened to me and I was in TST. There was a point in time where we were both in TST. I was on Back Street, you up on Frederick Street, and I always remember saying, Don't you take a break? There was a lobby by security. There's a lineman spot, you have a 15-minute break. Yeah, and but contractor coming the way that man cussing, my man vex it, but then people and think they they corrupt. They used to call Cellnet or something before before it switched to B Mobile. Um, just before you had a little too before before the it was TST, yeah. I think it was Cellnet, yeah. Yeah, yeah. So you're talking about since Cellnet days, this one corrupt, and he takes this man my name, man. Oh my god, which is which is people I know working working up by you. So I listening, I listening for your name. How are you waiting to hear someone can come up there and get you some fatigue? That man never says your name. So you I say I say I say that's what I'm moving up there. He said, Yeah, boy. I said, What about Ken Kobe?

Speaker 1: 54:13

He's in the cool, e cool. You got his name? I never get him fella's name.

Corie: 54:20

I think the name you're supposed to get. That's what I said. I never listen to this Ken Kobe for love. Those early days, those days in TST. I remember you coming and talk about getting the opportunities to start your own business. And and as a child, maybe going back to very, very early days. Yeah. Maybe if I get it, how much more work you had? Like about this. How much time you have this? How many different work you had? It's in 18.

Speaker 1: 54:46

Honestly, I worked in nine different places before I started my own business, you know.

Corie: 54:49

Seriously.

Speaker 1: 54:50

Yeah.

Corie: 54:52

So I see it now, I see it in the companies, and I see I always used to see, and you talk about the work ethic. I see it in on the job. Yeah, I see the time you would leave home, the time you would come home, you're dedicated. You, you, you, you in it. And when you're in it, your your whole self is in the positions. Like sweetie place is one of them. Yeah, yeah, yeah. What's the proper name of the place again? Oh gosh, I can't. You can't remember. There was a warehouse, it was basically a warehouse. I see. And I remember we go in there, Janelle and I, we, we, we there's a play. No, no, to stop the sweetie. That is the play. They had a lemon dip. Lemon dip, boy.

Speaker 1: 55:28

That was something, boy.

Corie: 55:29

Um, true value, yes, true value. Any book you can say true value on top of you leave in the mob.

Speaker 1: 55:34

I mean, they could say that's all. I mean, but I just don't say anything disparaging about it.

Corie: 55:37

Well, all right, next question. But we played there in the grocery whole day. Yeah, I remember your rapper with it with the team. You you you're very much involved. You're never not any office person.

Speaker 1: 55:47

No, no, no, no.

Corie: 55:48

And I was shocked when I found out you don't own true value. I remember the first time you talk because I told manager mean dios. So I tell people that yours and off the other hand. My father owns a grocery. Yeah, it must be people that grocery after today. But so I was shocked. I was like, well, why you don't why you don't just have your own grocery? Yeah, I don't I remember that conversation.

Speaker 1: 56:10

Oh, you know? Yeah, I just I don't know if I ever told you this, right? But I feel like I have a photographic memory for conversations. I knew where we were, I know where we were when we had that conversation. You were in the front store of the supermarket in Gulf City. And you came up and you asked me that day you had a race with Janelle.

Corie: 56:26

Yeah. Janelle won.

Speaker 1: 56:28

Never running a race up the lane. And you know which lane you all were running the race on? The liquor lane.

Corie: 56:34

That's the lane, sir. That is the line.

Speaker 1: 56:37

You understand? And when I kind of call you all together and say, hey, stop running. You say, Daddy, this is your grocery. I say, No, sir, this grocery is owned by a man named Mr. Poontip. Well, why don't you start your own grocery? But I'll tell you this: this is the subject of my next book. Yeah. Yeah. Because I actually had it in this book and I took it out because it didn't align with some of the maybe I didn't think of the unexpected teachers thing yet. But um so I I moved it out and I I I plan to write another book about starting the business, the impetus to start a business and what it means to get into your to your own your own business, right? And um, and I look at your trajectory getting into sight up and where it has taken you, and how I came into sight up and how it started. And you know, so even from small, playing in the grocery like me, playing in the grocery and merchandising the shelves and stuff, and then ending up in the grocery for real to work, and then starting a merchandising company. I mean, it's worthy of a read for sure.

Corie: 57:38

I suppose, yeah.

Speaker 1: 57:39

So that is something connecting that. But in the book, I also connect the fact that it happened to you too, because you were also playing in the grocery at that time, and then ended up not necessarily working in a grocery, but working in an organization that really started with a focus on super on supermarkets. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Corie: 57:56

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Absolutely. So at that time I remember the discussions because I'm trying to do my masters, you seeing the opportunity way clearer than I could possibly see it. Yeah, and maybe having the foresight to see that this is something that we could we could actually build ourselves because I mean it's a far cry from the child who says, Why you don't start your own grocery? When it's time to start your own grocery, I'm frightening like, yeah, I don't want to, I don't want to resign. Yeah, what was that like having to make that job? Yeah. So to go out.

Speaker 1: 58:22

I had no fear whatsoever.

Corie: 58:23

Really?

Speaker 1: 58:24

None. Not for a moment. I had to do it. I wanted to do it. I guess I was always I I mean, I guess my makeup is that I want the independence. I just thrived the in, you know, at the independence of having to make my own decisions, and I had got to the point where I hated the process of having to get approval here, wait for this one to get approval, justify this to people. I figure I know everything. Yeah. And I figure I know what to do. Let me go and do what I let me put my money where my mouth is, right? So, because I didn't, I wasn't happy becoming somebody in an organization who would be complaining about the organization. That's why I left nine companies because I don't complain, you know. I take action. Right. And if the action is that I move on, then let me move on, let me do it myself, put my money where my mouth is, kind of thing, right? So, and that was it.

Corie: 59:11

Yeah, yeah. I can't believe that though. Like a lot of people talk about how scary it might be to make that jump and to do that. So going into the office the first day, you confident that we could get this thing done.

Speaker 1: 59:21

Absolutely. I I, you know, I mean, I I have no doubt in my mind whatsoever that I'll do it, and I and I feel like if I could make a sale, and I always felt that that's the most important. I've changed that. Right. I've changed, I don't think that's the most important thing anymore, but I always felt that listening. Proof of concept, this is stages.

Corie: 59:37

No, it's stages because I think when you're now starting off, you had to make a sale, somebody had to buy something.

Speaker 1: 59:42

You better have something to sell, and you know, and somebody who's willing to buy it.

Corie: 59:45

Yeah, I can remember them early days because you would have started when 2005, middle, and I remember you working on the first seven hours retailers detail and working on that and putting all the things together. And then by the time I came 2006, it was me, you and Kelly at that time. Yeah, and I remember the That might be the most exciting part of my career or in any career. Right. When we had to make them calls, there's uncertainty that can't be explained. I mean, you're frightened like hell every day. I remember buying ads in the paper and being shocked at how much this thing has cost. $12,500, full colour, full page ads. And you had to run three, four ads a week. And that phone didn't ringing boy.

Speaker 1: 1:00:22

Listen, man, listen, listen. A day I was in that office, boy. I cry, you know. I say, you leave your job, they're paying you $22,000 a month.

Speaker 2: 1:00:33

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1: 1:00:34

And you come to do this thing for $3,000. You can't put $3,000 in your own bank accounts, right? And you and you can't put 50 people in a seminar because I was trying to get 50 people to go to this seminar at the Hilton. You know, wow, boy, that was pain beyond whatever. And I guess that's part of doing it on your own, eh? Yeah, yeah. But that's the subject of a whole uh that next book. You have to read that one.

Corie: 1:00:57

Yeah, yeah. It reminds me of the times when there's a part of the book where you spoke about being in a root shop and saying one day you go own or own or buy that. You know what you say, you take your whole salary and buy roti, or you own the roti shop. What are you just going to do?

Speaker 1: 1:01:09

Um, no, the the the roti story was really um in this in the in the story about Mr. Gordon and about initiative. And I think I was saying that um I don't think young people, when they get a job, they're really thinking about things like initiative, but that they'll have to use and stretch themselves and give service and solve problems. They're thinking about roti parties. I think that when I collect my own. I didn't finally rotate shopping because I love rotation. Right, yeah, yeah. So whatever you love to do, if you like parties, that's what you're thinking about. If you like cars, that's what you're thinking about doing. Not so much focused on the organization, what the organization is trying to achieve. Of course. So to get people there, it requires a certain kind of leadership to onboard young people to what the realities of the workplace really is.

Corie: 1:01:56

Yeah, I saw it many many times over the years. Because I guess I say phases are sighted, for instance, where when you first start off, people in positions, you need a whole bunch of doers, a whole bunch of people who execute and who dare with you, who sort of motivates yourself and each other around as we go along. And then it started to shift to where you start to need more and more professional management building into organization. I always remember to you're telling this story about how frightening I gave when I see the amount of lights in the office we didn't know. Yeah, boy. And next thing I was like, we what is this? But you go through it and it goes. I have this thing where every like I always used to end up in the office somewhere around Olias. I guess it's gift-giving and uh, and I always remember when the office closed off and they opened that gate. I always feel like maybe survive this year because it happened. It had plenty of sunshine, and I just be emotional. It's like, wow, we're still here. Yeah, and I always wondered what it was like for you stepping away from that, having built something, see so many people pass through, so many people develop, people move on, have their own companies. When you had to take a step back and say, All right, but that sight of not is not what you're gonna do for the next phase of your life. Yeah, what is that like?

Speaker 1: 1:03:05

It's an emotional process, you know? Yeah, yeah, you have to step back. But I guess it's part of the um the process for me of of becoming silent and and retreat, right? Taking a retreat. Because I realized that look, I had a son who is 30 years old, capable. I have another one who is 30 years old, but capable. What am I really doing? You know, you understand what I'm saying? What am I really doing? You know, because the marketing is different, the selling is different, the areas of strength that I had changed. My network changed. I I would have been the person who could pick up the phone and call any number of people to make a sale or get people to come to a seminar or something like that. But then those faces started to change. People wanted to see a younger, fresher outlook. And I heard the difference in the way that I did it. And I feel like I was humble enough to say to myself, you know what? I let me be a yes man for my sons. Let me be a yes man, let me be the one to say yes. And I'm still that way, I'm still looking to say yes. The idea sounds good. I don't like the idea. The answer is yes. Because I know that my ideas ain't gonna work.

Corie: 1:04:09

That's not true, but all right.

Speaker 1: 1:04:10

You understand? And and I I feel like if I I'd like to see more leaders do that. More leaders, stop putting people through the grind of having to convince you that their idea is good. Just say yes. They can't break the thing. Try something new because you your response is a yes too, you know. Your response as the leader is a yes, right? Somebody has said yes to allow you to be able to respond. That's true. Mash up this mic boy. Yeah, right. Somebody has said yes, a CEO somewhere, uh, a chairman somewhere has said yes to give you the authority to be able to take these initiatives. And therefore, when you have the right of way, a really, you know, a beautiful thing to do is to give the right of way away. Right? Because it's yours, you have it. What else can you do with something you have but to give it away? What other value it really has? You know, at some point you you would have used up its value tenfold, right? Give it away, allow people. So I feel like if I I ate up my own value in the company for many, many years, and it was time for me to step back and give some. I don't expect that every decision you make will be the right decision. Or or Stefan, I don't expect it to be the right decision. I know you'll make some mistakes, but I didn't patent mistakes. Yeah, right? I didn't patent mistakes. You have to make the mistakes. I don't have a monopoly on mistakes, right? So we all have to do it. So make your mistakes, fail fast, right? And I heard people say, you know, don't make the same mistake twice. That that I I I don't know, I don't know how much sense that really makes.

Corie: 1:05:42

Yeah, there's no such thing as you know, the Chinese. Never stand in the same river twice or something like that. You can't exist, it's not such a thing as the same mistake.

Speaker 1: 1:05:50

When you think of this statement, don't make the same mistake twice. But the first one could not have been a mistake. Yeah, I suppose. I suppose if it's a mistake, you don't know you're making it. What do you mean don't make the same mistake twice? Make the same mistake as as as many times as the mistake has will be made. Yeah, because you weren't really making the mistake. You understand what I'm saying? You don't decide, oh, I'm gonna make a mistake on this one. So today I'm not gonna make a mistake on this, I'm gonna make a mistake on this one.

Corie: 1:06:17

No, yeah, it really don't work that way. It really doesn't work that way. And as you bring up humility, is it it's like going back to and you spoke about these interviews and doing them now. I think that when you being the first person we ever had this kind of discussion with, the first question I ask you, change everything for me. Okay. In terms of uh, because I was shocked like hell of the answer. But before then, in terms of me preparing for an interview, even my job interview, I have a tendency when I watch your resume to say, I don't know, that's what's in my mind. I know when I ask about this, you will say that, and then I asked about this. I have that whole thing mapped out all the way to the end. So I remember preparing to talk to you, and one of my first questions was, or the first question was, what was it like growing up in Levantee Road? And you say, I expect and say, Lavantee road, I wasn't going down a road. I don't know if you remember your response, but you say levantry road is abusive. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's funny that you mentioned humility, and that is where the book started off. I'm not sure that I read a lot of leadership books that went into as many family stories or real stories as yours. Deliberate in terms of how you approach the book.

Speaker 1: 1:07:20

Very much so. Yeah. Because I realized that um what we learn at home at an early age, those lessons take us through our entire lives, you know. Take us through our entire lives. And as a matter of fact, the lessons we learn at home are embedded more significant because we've heard them a million times or we lived them and we've seen our parents and our siblings and so on demonstrate them, right? So they become kind of like the fabric of our lives. So when you go to university, for example, after if you learn new theories when you go, you have to unlearn those new, those old ways of seeing the world to start to embrace these new ideas. And you know, in the learning theory, there's this concept that if when you hear a new idea for the first time, you actually double down on the idea that you have about what the thing really is. You don't just accept the new idea unless it comes from a source that is a validated source for you. So maybe you have a very good friend, a podcaster who uh Cory Shepherd podcast, you hear it on the podcast, and they say, It must be right. You know, but when you hear those ideas, especially depending on who the ideas might be coming from.

Speaker 2: 1:08:27

Of course.

Speaker 1: 1:08:28

So if this lecturer says something and it sounds like if it went against your political party or the belief that you think, regardless of whether that is right or wrong, you double down on your belief in your own political party and you hold on to that and you will fight that for a while until you see evidence of the truth of what the person might be saying.

Corie: 1:08:46

So, was it you encouraging people who looking at leadership or looking to find takeaways from this book to look at that their past, look at their upbringing, look at that your traits that you would have developed in early life?

Speaker 1: 1:08:58

Yeah, absolutely, because what what I'm what I'm promoting, right? I'm promoting a different kind of leadership. I'm thinking that leadership, you know, it's not it's not a question of whether you're a leader, it's a question of what kind of leader you are. Because we are all leaders, because leading is really is really influencing, right? So I'm promoting, I what I want to ask leaders to do is to be more aware, is to determine, for example, what is your leadership philosophy? What is your leadership philosophy? What is the guidepost for you? What's the North Star for you as you lead people? And I think I shared in the book that my own leadership philosophy is self-awareness, intentionality, purpose, and benevolence. Right? I want to see leadership be kind. There's a kind of a vicious leadership that's taking place in the world right now. In the world, it's it's jarring. I mean, you know, I don't know how we navigate that, right? But I want leaders who are self-aware. So I want self-aware means that you understand that all of us as leaders have our shortcomings. We have shortcomings too. Stop giving people advice for a while now. Focus on your own shortcomings. Flip the switch, right? Instead of constantly telling people what to do and giving people advice, ask people what you should be doing. Ask people, you know, say to people, so I I I have this process. Actually, it's called the stakeholder-centered approach to coaching. It was developed by Dr. Marshall Goldsmith, right? And and what he really asks people to do is to say, listen, identify something you want to work on as a person. It might be a message that you you got from since you were small that is not useful to you anymore, right? It might be a message that is um that is um, I don't want to say demoralizing, the word escapes me now. But not allowing you to use your own, disempowering you. Sure, sure. Right? So what you have to do now is say, Equarian, I realize that I want I want to work on this thing, boy. I want to work on my patience, right? Could you give me some ideas as to how best I could do that, boy? What do you think? And then I can take the the advice that you gave me, and I can now say, okay, yeah, what? Let's let me see what I could do with that. I can even come back and make a promise to you. No, I want you to observe me, right? Because over time, I really working on this, and I need your help to tell me if I'm going back or if I'm going forward. That is what we're asking leaders to do now, right? It's it's a it's a total failure on leadership. It's a huge shift on leadership. You see, leadership has always been about, up to now, it's about command and control. And we could see the end of the era of command and control. You could see it happening. Even where you find the bravado is taking place. You could see the writing is on the wall for that kind of that kind of leadership. It wouldn't be here in 10 years' time. It wouldn't be here in 10 years' time. It's going to require a different kind of leader now.

Corie: 1:11:51

Yeah, is that me first kind of thing that is. No, yeah, it doesn't really work. No, when you you talk about your your philosophy and identifying the type of leader you are, you spoke a lot about Mammy Kobe in terms of that compassion. Because again, it's something I've seen you display many, many times over the years. I thought it was just with your family, you know, but I've seen many examples of it with team members who might not be acting in the way we expected, with clients who mightn't be behaving in the way we expected, and so on. How much was she an influence in terms of the way you saw dealing with other people's shortcomings or mistakes or whatever?

Speaker 1: 1:12:22

Yeah, no, a tremendous, tremendous influence. That's your source of influence right there. I mean, I saw her in her pain. You know, she and Daddy married almost 50 years, you know, but he he became so kind of impatient and the other kind of was on a different trajectory. Sometimes it happens with people who are living together for a long time, they lost their luster, and it's, you know, but it's always there. And for her, I think because of her story and the way she she grew up, not being able to go to school, you know, taking licks from everybody who is an authority figure all her life, and then meeting him and all of that. And to see the way she lived, you know, the way she was consistent about her role as mother and husband, she never stepped out of the home, you know, to find that anywhere else, to find a whole bunch of friends and that she's she she she was there, and she was there for him right down, you know, down to the last and until until she got she got sick. And I I remember um one of the instances when she was so um kind to me because you know I was afraid of licks, right? Like everybody else, you know, licks and daddy knew how to give licks and so when you when you when you live with somebody like that, you better be afraid of licks, you know. But I remember this. Um I had this friend who had a uh a flower shop, right? And mommy used to make these um soft toys, Bernie, Ernie and Bert, and all of them. She used to make it perfectly like the cart, sesame sheets, soft toys. So she gave me some to sell to these people, and I went down to the store and I gave it to the lady. Boy, the lady sell the thing and gave me the money. I spent the money. Right? So, you know, I'm telling you, why did I need this money? You know, I had three square meals a day and say, Money didn't spend money is to go and do stuff, right? But um, so mommy, one day she said, But Ken, what about the lady? You know, did she sell the things and stuff? I said, No, I mean, you know, I'll wait in and who tell me to say that. You know, my mother used to find herself in places if she wanted to go. She wasn't driving, but next thing you know, she goes and by the lady and I asked the lady about it. I sell that long time and give Ken the money. My God. So I when I when I she said, she called me, the lady from the store, Ken, what happened? Your mother came here asking for the money. I said, Shame. So um when I told mommy, I said, I'm really sorry, you know, boy, and that woman gave me a hug, boy. I will never forget. That wasn't the only time, she was a hug specialist, boy. But she gave me a hug inside her. That was that was beautiful. And then when I looked at the way she lived her life, and I felt that um, you know, when she died, we didn't we never got a chance to eulogize her in the way that we would like to, because that the faith at the time didn't believe in eulogizing the person too much and stuff, you know. So um I feel like if I owed it to her, this chapter in the book is is a eulogy. Oh, yeah, is a eulogy to her compassion and her empathy and stuff. And one of the things that I I I moved to do is to start a foundation in her name, which is the Eileen Corby Foundation for learning, empathy, compassion, and forgiveness. And this is one of the goals that I have coming out of this um the publication of this book, and one of the things that I'll be working on in the next few years.

Corie: 1:15:46

Yeah, congrats on that. I was surprised when I heard that. Yeah, we talk about this book all the time, and you're working on it, but that's something I never knew. So, and I think it's it's meaningful because of just who she was or is, you know, her stamp is is there, yeah. And it was interesting reading about that contrast growing up in the house again, the the the her style versus daddy's style, you know.

Speaker 1: 1:16:06

Rod of correction, boy. Rod of correction.

Corie: 1:16:10

But that's what I mean when I say like when you see it as leadership, like a lot of it I read because they're very personal stories, like him about Griffith and thing. Yeah, is it's you just being in situations where you seem to be able to take as much as you could take from the situation in terms of your own disability, and I see it all the time live where no matter what the situation is or the person is, where somebody else might say that's a bad person, yeah, or in a bad situation. Yeah, you kind of say is this what it is, I am what I am.

Speaker 1: 1:16:37

It is what it is.

Corie: 1:16:38

Yeah, all the time. I've heard that many, many times, and I see it where you kind of take what I don't even want to say good, but useful for you in this situation, you take it and everything else you leave behind, sort of without judgment, which is an impressive thing to see.

Speaker 1: 1:16:50

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Look, I mean, all situations in our lives, that's my belief. All situations in our lives are teachers. They're here to teach us something, otherwise, they wouldn't be here. Otherwise, they would not be here. Why? Why would something happen? Why would you meet a person or some incident happened in your life? There must be some reason beyond what you see. But I think one of the things that causes us to not be able to see those lessons and see those ideas and get the messages behind things that are happening to us is the focus on self. It's it's dangerous because when you're looking at yourself, you can't, it's ego, it's a high level of ego, right? Uh so the story of the man, for example, that I spoke about who was sharing the food.

Corie: 1:17:33

Right.

Speaker 1: 1:17:33

Right? If because I was only focused on how he looked, the way he spoke and the way he behaved, I couldn't see the message that he was in my life to give me this particular message. I couldn't I couldn't see that, right? And that's the same. When I talk about Peter Williams, for example, how Peter Williams was dealing with all the boys and he was always making a difference in the lives of the people.

Corie: 1:17:54

Yeah, you thought he was a teacher.

Speaker 1: 1:17:55

I thought he was a teacher, right? And then I found he laughed and I when I complimented him and he said, Nah, but I'm a parent. I said, Wow, now if Peter Williams had a funny muff, right? Or we used to walk a little hop and drop and thing, you might not get a message. I might not get the message because I'm so focused on what I don't like, what irritates me, what irks me, you know, or or or trying to posture in a way that my self-image is always nice and squeaky clean or whatever. Then I can't see, I'm not on the frequency with the lessons that are out there to help me to live and to become wiser, right? Because I really believe so for me, my goal right now is wisdom, you know. I'm looking for wisdom. I'm looking to be able to live this life in a way that is most meaningful to me. My next foray is heaven, you know. That's my next foray. I I starting to figure out things now to see how I get in there, you know. And I didn't think you could get there without wisdom.

unknown: 1:18:55

Right?

Speaker 1: 1:18:56

Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I mean that's so that so that's that that's where I am. And it allows me to make a little deeper um connection with the things that that that's happening around me rather than just see them as evidence or whatever, however, we see dangerous situations as well, calamities in here. Of course, of course. I'm here to hear to teach you something.

Corie: 1:19:16

Yeah, yeah. And again, I have a front row seated because many times I go through something, and the the question why would come up for any human? Yeah, you say, Well, what's going on? Is all this happening? And yet you tend to be that call that centers everything. Yeah, but yeah, yeah, this is what it is. There's life too. Yeah, and we we walk through many of those things. So you encouraging people to tune into that frequency to identify the teachers that are around them, whether situational or individual. Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 1: 1:19:40

Step back from the situation you are in and take a fresh pair of eyes and look at the situation and be open to reframing the situation. Don't take the situations literally because they are not. They are not literally. Because, of course, you know we have hidden meanings and everything. Right? So when you take a little time and you um you drop, you you you forget yourself. I'll give an example of what I mean, you know. Like I was saying to Chris the other day, Christine, I was saying, you know, I am at this particular point in my life where I feel what I want to do is accompany her.

Corie: 1:20:14

Is it white?

Speaker 1: 1:20:15

Yeah. I want to accompany her. But that's a very deep statement. The her is what I want to accompany. Not the person who I want to see, you know.

Corie: 1:20:28

Of course, yeah. Whatever she whatever.

Speaker 1: 1:20:30

Whatever ways that she shows up. If she's irritated at something I do, I want to embrace that. If she has a funny way that she might say something or speak or something, I want to embrace that. If she's wearing something that I don't like, I want to embrace that. You with me? And you could extrapolate that into as many situations for as many people as possible. I just want to be and allow people to be. And I don't think it's a stretch for organizations. As a matter of fact, I think that's where organizations are going.

Speaker 2: 1:21:00

Right?

Speaker 1: 1:21:00

So so you know, in in my early life, my my my experience with my father was that I get plenty of licks. He was trying to make me into something. He didn't realize that I was already successful. He didn't know that I was already successful. Why wouldn't I be successful? Right? So he thought that what he had to do is to shape me into this success. Yeah, yeah. So he was shaping me. As many parents do, I suppose. But that's what we think we're doing, right? But you could see how how that goes. That doesn't always go very well. You put a lot of pressure on children. You know, you ask them to live the life that you want to live, or maybe that you had never had an opportunity to fulfill. So you're there beating them out, right? And you know, he wanted me to learn maths and be uh he might be surprised. So no, it never happened. Well, I shouldn't say it never happened, to be honest with you. I didn't learn the mathematics until I was in university. Right. And then I realized how easy it was. But what was stopping me from learning the maths, right? That he was trying to teach me, because he used to be a teacher in his early incarnation too, right? Was the fear. The fear. So if you constantly hold a whip up to people, what you get is their response to fear, not freedom, yeah, not liberation. And I I want leaders who are prepared to liberate themselves, first of all, from that kind of thinking, to be able to liberate the people around you to be the best that they can be. You cannot be the best that you you can be if you're living in fear.

Corie: 1:22:27

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1: 1:22:28

You know, so so so that's what I that's that's what I'm thinking about about that. And Daddy um brought that point home. And I I mean, when when when when you were small, I was kind of like the same way, you know, trying to be over strict, not trying to be all of this with you, not realizing you know what was one something interesting, and I tell people all the time, right? I said, you know, boy, I'm coaching somebody, and I say, you know, they're struggling with their own success and the success of the show. I say, Boy, you know, I had this son, right?

Corie: 1:23:00

Yeah, you confirm this, you know.

Speaker 1: 1:23:03

I have this son, right? I said, sure, you want to hear the story? He said, of course, you know, they're kind to me. They say, go ahead and tell the story. I say, This man used to come last and test every time, right? I said, if they had the only reason the man didn't come 31st and test was that they had 30 children in the class, right? And I used to be stressing, man, why are you not doing the work and all that? And I stress, right? And then I saw you come into the company, I think you were maybe about 21 or something, 22, you said when you came into the company.

Corie: 1:23:36

Yeah, no, yeah, yeah, maybe around there. 24, 25.

Speaker 1: 1:23:39

When I was in UE, when I was just about to leave you, you joined. Yeah, right? And by 26, you had your MBA. Yeah. Right? If I if I had, I guess in hindsight, if I if I knew then that you would be so successful, would I have reacted the same way? Yeah. I don't believe that your success has anything to do with the way I was behaving. I think that you would come to your own success, you would learn at your own time, you would learn at your own pace. You can't force anybody to learn anything. You learn at your own time and pace and your maturity. When you're mature enough, your success begins to show up, right? Because you understand what is important, what is not important, and stuff. So the job that we have as parents, as leaders, accompany people on that journey. Understand that they are already successful. You are not there to make them successful, you are there to make yourself successful. Not to make the person under you successful or the or one of your peers successful. They're responsible for their own success. And they know how to get their success, right? They know how to get their success. Everybody knows what they have to do. So that's inspiring. Hold hands, hold people's hands, accompany them with them, accompany them.

Corie: 1:24:47

Yeah. Just in you saying that, maybe even more than reading the book, that idea of because and and I'll tell you, right? That's one of the most impressive parts of the book. Before I get to the part, I save one part for last, right? To make sure certain people listen to the end, right? Okay, you know what I mean? We cannot know they're listening for the name, right? I figured I know who that is. But listen, when you said everyday leadership, and I will listen to the term servant leadership, and I was trying to figure out why you chose everyday leadership. I felt like reading the book, one of the biggest takeaways is that everyday. Yeah. Because there's no you don't have a choice. Yeah, leadership is everyday, it's in every moment. Yeah, and one of the things you just said stood out a lot. Because if I can see that outcome, a part of it is the same thing you're talking about in the beginning. Because if I have a son, I want him to do well in life, I would assume that if he on this part, the trajectory remains the same. That's also not true. Yeah. And if you're not doing good, then I have to do something to make it interesting. And I think if you could show up that way for your children, which is maybe the biggest risk relationship we have, you know, that's the one that everybody worries about the most. But I think it if you can apply that there in organizations, you must soar. Because in organizations, you have the benefit of screening a hundred people, doing three interviews by the time the man reached the like barrow. Yeah, you know, you have the right person in the right place. Exactly. Yeah, so name time, call people name and say, Call name if you want. Cerez. Oh gosh. She's boiling all now that she's about griffiths and barrels in some butter. Well, early in the book again, a part of that family story, parts that I've heard a lot in terms of your sister, your big sister, you're the youngest of four. Five, five. We're missing five. Oh, wait, see what she's getting in trouble. And really watching several different examples because, as with any group of siblings, so much different personalities, so much different goals, so much different dreams. And uh today we can call her Dr. Teresa Charles, yeah, you know, but it didn't start off like that. It starts off with one of those situations where again, if you could see, if daddy and them could have sea Theresa Charles.

Speaker 1: 1:26:58

Could you imagine? Could you imagine? Yeah.

Corie: 1:27:01

So, was it like looking at that as a 12-year-old looking at that, looking at your sister going through that? What was it like for you? Were you thinking at the time?

Speaker 1: 1:27:09

I don't know if I was thinking actually, you know, I I know I was scared because something was happening to Therese. This is this is my sister. It's like, you know, she being put out of the house. I don't remember much more of the emotions that I experienced, but I just I just could connect with that fear that I felt at that time that something something bad was happening. I didn't even know if I understood that she was pregnant or what what what the real reason for that was, right? But I just connect with the fact that I was I was really scared. I was away from it. Maybe that's why I was so far because it's licks. Yeah, yeah, that's a gladness from the kitchen, you know. So I I kept my distance, my distance on that one.

Corie: 1:27:47

Yeah, well, I remember you speaking to being in people to flash back to then, yeah, what it was like in the village for somebody to find out that somebody having a teenage pregnancy is like the parents take that on themselves in a sort of way.

Speaker 1: 1:28:00

Yeah, yeah. I mean, of course, the the the signal to the community when a young girl gets pregnant is that the mother failed. You know, so so mothers are very, very hype about that. So my mom to see her like that. I I don't that's the only time I think I saw her like that. She was totally in it, yeah, yeah, totally taken over. I mean, the la hijack. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Corie: 1:28:22

The real McCoy.

Speaker 1: 1:28:23

The real McCoy, she was in a rage, she was crying. She was, and then of course, Daddy had a belt in his hand, right? The signature um tool for correction, the rod of correction. But yes, but the the whole it was a it was a spectacle in the in the village, right? You know, people are always looking out for that. You know, there were all kinds of predictions about pregnancies, you know. People expect it to happen, not just with her, but any young girl in the in the village, because you know what happens, everybody is inside of that village, and a lot of young fellas growing up at the same time with young girls. So parents are especially mothers, trying to protect their girls from that kind of thing happening.

Corie: 1:29:00

Of course. That's why I like the encouraging book that um always said earlier about you. If you get able to predict that child and where that child lands, it's such a it's it might be comforting to most of us, and we might release some of that tension that we have on parents because it's that one relationship that feels like it's the most at stake. You want to you want to set up your life in a way as tells a real time, but me and go be here. Use the terminal the time. You say, Boy, I ain't gonna be here. I'm not gonna be here forever.

Speaker 1: 1:29:26

I often have a picture of daddy, you know. Um you know, in his in his own style, you know, he he would say something like, That's Dr. Therese. Probably she's a damn Kobe, you know. Dr.

Corie: 1:29:42

Charles is a Kobe.

Speaker 1: 1:29:43

I like that. Yeah, she's a she's a Kobe, you know, but uh, I guess that that that is the way it is. And I think parents, there's a certain degree of pride with everything that our children achieve, whether we think we want to associate ourselves with the achievement of that or not. But I mean, I think they would have been very, very proud to see and and they would definitely have reacted. I mean, Carlo was the child that caused all this back and all, right?

Corie: 1:30:08

As always, as always with Carlo.

Speaker 1: 1:30:11

I don't know, Poji as the protagonist, as always with Poji is a trend, you know. But by the time Carlo was uh doing her exams, Carlo, Carlo was home, Carlo was living by us for a little while. You know, she took the time to study and she studied at home, so she was already, they were getting a little bit older, so she was already accepted and that kind of thing in a few a few years after that. That's the heat of the moment. That's the time when I think I'm advocating for stepping back in the time, in the heat of the action. Yeah, if it's possible to step back, it's it's difficult, yeah. That's that's her doctrine.

Corie: 1:30:45

No doubt about it. That's not easy, you know. Because when you're any moment, any moment. Yeah, but it's so full circle, as you said before, because for me, uh again, I always remember anti-terrorists calling and asking me about citation and this and that, because uh, I always tell her, See, I had my master's already before you start your bachelor's, and now you're your PhD level, which is yeah, a leader would be should be happy to see that, you know, to see people do well. But the full circle moment for me is that I remember those days when Carla was up the hill. Carla is the first person I see studying ever. Right sitting down with a book and staying up blazing in there. I try to figure out what we do this when we come to play. Yeah, yeah. And that in its own way encouraged me or made me believe that number one is a cool thing to do, you know, and and that maybe if Carla could do it, I could do it. You know what I mean?

Speaker 1: 1:31:32

Don't mind what they said, unexpected teacher right there.

Corie: 1:31:35

I suppose, I suppose is there. So get into and I again me drawing that parallel between what you would have seen as servant leadership versus everyday leadership is in those moments when it's it matters, and the tests always come as in life as in organizations. The tests always there, there's always some challenge. You don't have enough budget to do this, we don't have this, or as you say with Barrow, the customer coming and they're complaining. It's not like if life goes on stop for us to be able to implement or apply some of this, right? Right.

Speaker 1: 1:32:05

To separate leadership, you know. I wish we could. Yeah, it's like you know, there's there's a sense that leadership can only be found in organizations or in structures. You know what I mean? So people like to look at authors and they like to look at um at people who we know famous people, you know, they are the leaders, the politicians, they are the ones who are leaders. And the truth is that they struggle with leadership in the same way that we that we do. They all have behavioral characteristics that do really um serve them or serve the community or or others. You know, this whole idea of the everyday leader is in normal, everyday situations. Look, in my faith, I'm a member of the Oprah State movement in the in the Catholic Church, the men's group. And um the the mantra is that your work is your prayer. Your work is your prayer. So how you give back to God is in the everyday things that you do. And it's and that's that's the leadership. Yeah, yeah. It starts with personal leadership. How do I take care of myself? How do I manage myself? How do I lead myself? How do I develop confidence, develop strength, develop self-esteem, develop resilience, you know what I mean? Develop a sense of trust in in the goodness of the world around me, you know, and then you you are stronger and better able to provide a leadership role where where you have to work with others.

Corie: 1:33:29

Yeah, inspiring us, I say, because it then it uh encourages us to look at the world the way it is, look at people the way they are. And and and really the only thing you could do is is work on self. It's like um I had to let Father Gregory at time myself. Father Gregory asked me for him. I say, yeah, you'll see busy man in open day this evening. Father Gregory said, Don't get no more Catholic than that. If my priest can say that, but yeah, that that idea that it forces you to kind of it's really self-reflective. And those stories throughout the book kept saying that. You said as well that there's a story behind the cover of the book, yes? Because when I look at the cover of the book, it looked like the exact kind of place I would be lost in. When I look at these trees and I live along this road, it looked like lost territory.

Speaker 1: 1:34:15

Yeah, you know, it's it's it was really difficult to find an image that sort of aligns with what I call everyday leadership. I mean, what do you do? Everyday leadership is life itself, right? And what what signifies life? What is it? You know, so we tried a number of things, and then I kind of found this. This is really the redwood forest that could be found in places like Oregon and in California. And um, it's very analogous if that's the word, to the kind of leadership that I want to promote. So notice I didn't say to leadership, because I'm always saying that leadership is not a question of leadership, it's a question of what is the quality of leadership. It's that the leadership is bad or good, but it always exists, it exists in everything, right? But what's interesting about that is that these trees in this forest, these trees can go to 400 feet high. That's no, that's that's that's that is very, very, very tall. I mean, you can't even picture a 400-foot tree. You can't really look up and see it. But what's interesting is that you know the the roots only grow up to five to ten feet deep. And five to ten feet deep. I don't know that you see the size of those those those trees, right? Yeah, and uh that height. But what what the way that the root grows is that the root grows horizontally, so five to ten feet, but they grow to 50 feet horizontally, and therefore they intertwine with the other roots in the forest. Is there a better example of everyday leadership than that? That your leadership matters, right? Because without you, I can't function. That's a fundamental thing for us to understand. Your leadership matters, right? And the consequence of your leadership will live way beyond your lifetime. These trees, some of these trees go to 3,000 years old, right? And what's interesting is that when when a tree, if when a tree dies, some new saplings come up. And so the tree is always alive, and and really the sense that you are always alive through the way you led yourself, the leadership that you um provided this world with, right? Because all of the structures and systems and stories that we hear in the world have started a long, long time ago. Look at the world and you will see the leadership that was here hundreds of years ago, still here. So one of the things I ask people to do in that book is be careful how you say listen to me. Because that listen to me could go over from generation to generation to generation, and the way you live, the decisions you made, the choices you chose, who you interacted with. What's the outcome of your life? It is it's always producing fruit beyond the specific lifetime of the 80 years or whatever that we have. Because you will be here, hopefully, long after I'm gone. And you will teach Zachary a whole bunch of stuff that you learn from me and you learn from others around you. So your leadership is always living. So it's important to make a decision about the kind of life that you want you want to live. And a couple more things on the on the forest is that so disappointing come up. So they they support the ecosystem. Now these trees are almost fire-retardant. Well, fire retardant, not fire resistant entirely. Yeah, because the back of a redwood tree 12 feet, 12 inches. Oh, yeah. All of that is back. In other words, no little fire can't interfere with it. When it decides who it is, when it establishes itself, no little imitant could shake it and move it from what it's what its goals are. You with me? Insects don't eat that. Yeah, they eat 12. By the time you eat, it's 12 inches. You can't make that. You understand? So so I I love the sense of the intertwining nature of the roots of the tree because it really supports the old South African um saying, you know, Ubuntu. I am because you are. I can't survive without you. And I think leaders need to behave that way and show up that way. That's what I meant by accompanying. Yeah. I'm here for you, and we're in this together, and we're going down you because you know, for the love of God, they're there I go wherever I see you go. Yeah.

Corie: 1:38:29

When you say accompanying, and you know, I always reference music when it comes to you. That word accompaniment in music is so similar because the truth is it's one band, one song. Yeah, you know, and you you know Nolly's a man. Like I didn't know before I read this book that it's true, Miller. You meet Nolly. Yeah, I didn't know this at all. So, Nolly, for people who might know the bass man on this side. Yes, yeah, yeah. And we play together a lot, yeah. But we know how it feels when it's just like you complain about all the time. You say, Boy, you're coming down the road, I learned how to play this thing. Yeah, when I come now, we add something. Yeah, of course. Say, Boy, Nolly missing or Ashton missing. Ashton always missing, but whoever the whoever the member is, you know, the the the I like the analogy, and again, my expectation when I if I see you do a book, I lost all my money if I had to better. Are you looking for a box bass or I would always feel like if that is what I'll go back to? So it's it's interesting that that's the way you talk, you talk about it.

Speaker 1: 1:39:21

I mean, I guess I guess the Redwood Forest really is a great analogy to be able to use, you know, that I couldn't find any other in an instrument or something. And then, of course, I'm I'm not just writing for a local audience that understands me or understands our tradition. Is I'd like to bring other people into our tradition as well. If there are people who will read it who live in the furthest places away in the world, they get to learn a little bit more about who we are. And you know, and people don't um people only learn from instruction, they learn from assimilating into other cultures and stuff. So I think it's a good opportunity for people who may be outside of our circles and outside of our culture entirely to pay. Up a book like this, although there's nothing on the book that says I'm from Trinidad or West Indian backs.

Corie: 1:40:05

No, but even so, like I heard Dr. Bernard talk at the um yeah at the launch, yeah, and I think he summed it up perfectly. Like you found a way to keep the storytelling going from beginning to end. I'm sure everybody who reads this has a different image of all the people that you're talking about, and you think they might be surprised when they see what terrorists really look like it's so vivid the way you paint the picture, and some of them I might um I remember Griffith a little bit, but you know, it's some some images that you have in your mind of uh even the young version of these people because it in that yeah is it's the same thing as you say with the forest and the trees, you know, 400 feet tall. Yeah, that's a long way to navigate, you know, as with life. So you're always trying to figure something out and to move through it. And it's something you had in the book, I feel is the best place for us to get to. Right. Uh, because the coaching notes I found were really, really helpful. Okay, you're reading the book, and there were sometimes that, like I always tell you, I have trouble reading fiction. Right. I have to tell everybody too. I don't know anybody who reads more books than this man. This man reads a lot of books, audio, real books, and so on. So I have trouble sometimes sticking with stories. Maybe it's just in my mind when I know it now, real, I can't follow it. Like the Gresham and thing, some of them books is like I can't understand. But it was the opposite of this book because the stories were real, and I felt myself like reading like it's a storybook, like in a lighter. You remember the books? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I keep reading these stories, and somewhere along the line I was like, what's going on here? What is this story? So what happened to Griffith? No, I was like, you want to know more about the character. Right. So I found the coaching notes, tie them back perfectly. And there's this coaching note, I think it's the end of chapter. Which chapter is it? End of chapter five. It said, any opportunity to take a young person under your wing is worth grasping. There's well-documented evidence of the effect on the life chances of those who those fortunate to have a mentor. The outgrowth is a stronger sense of self-conf a stronger sense of self-confidence, but above all, perhaps those who have been mentored are more likely to become mentors themselves, carrying forward the legacy for others to follow. There's no more necessary task for leaders today than building a cadre of principal leaders for the future. A lot of those notes and a lot of those nuggets would have come out during the book. And it speaks to just what you're saying on the cover. You you're not encouraging leaders to or encouraging us to explore your ideas around leadership just for the sake of who we are now. Or, you know, again, I pick up a leadership book. I expect somebody to tell me, do these five things when you go to work tomorrow. You know?

Speaker 1: 1:42:36

Yeah. I really try to avoid that, you know. I really try to avoid that's why I like the idea that it's a story. And I feel that's really my best writing style. Right. Because I don't consider myself an academic. I'm not writing this book from any kind of research project that I did. So it's just real. It's it's it's real stories, and I was trying to not position myself as some kind of leadership guru. Uh, you know, seven steps to maybe I'll do that one of these days, you know. But uh but for now, I think I'm gonna keep it real. And the idea of the book is to hold up a mirror to people who read it and ask yourself, you know, like like somebody who um my friend who wrote the the forward, he said, you know, when I read it, I asked myself, is this me? Yeah, that's exactly what the outcome, that's exactly the outcome that I hope um um people people experience. Is this me? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then there's an opportunity to shift, shift to something different if you want to. And and you know what I'll also say this um as people make that shift, or you feel that the the opportunity comes to make the shift, ask for help. Get a coach. Yeah, exactly. You know, find yourself in that crucible, that that mentoring space where there's always somebody you are mentoring. The world needs a lot of help, you know. And there are a lot of young people who could do with that help, have somebody to mentor. I mean, I remember when I was in my 20s, I I said it on my website. If I knew anything about coaching when I was in my twenties, I would probably come through this journey with a few less scars. I don't know that would have been a good thing because I might have missed some of my teachers, but you understand? Yeah. I could make less mistakes, I could hurt less people, and so on. If I had somebody who was was a guide in my life, like but not like a parent, you know, but a professional who could help me and listen to my conversation and and you know, help me to frame a conversation as more useful and wouldn't disempower me and would give me an opportunity to you know explore the possibilities that that were there for me in my life.

Corie: 1:44:34

Makes sense. I took those things away. I again being in the front rise, I some of the stories are no, some were surprising. I guess you know, even as you talk about the redwood, the more surprising thing about the book for me than the stories was the connections. Yeah, you know, the the the people who were connected and and who got you there. So I I like that you encourage people to get a coach. I will encourage people to get you as a coach because 10-20 percent, whatever is the percentage thing we're working out. I look at and as we're saying that I'll make sure that I have the link for the book on Amazon as well. Uh I I find it I find it inspiring that um David said to hold up the book while I'm saying the link for the book on Amazon. But yeah, the the even the process of looking at you do the book, looking at you clean up the study. You remember them this? Oh, yeah, but just to get to the point where you can clear my book chapter by chapter. So much of the like maybe I get the the what you call it, the prologue, what you call it when you have the whole version and you cut it down. Whatever it's called that, I have no idea. I see many, many iterations come and go. I'm correct, I say that um you said that you're looking at your next book.

Speaker 1: 1:45:38

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Corie: 1:45:39

I feel like the story of Sightup and your entrepreneurial story, like giving IPS on them things, it needs to be told. It needs to be told.

Speaker 1: 1:45:45

I actually have some of those chapters written already. Oh, you do. I have four chapters into that, into that new book. But because they were so um I could trace them in terms of the journey to starting a business and doing it. I took them out of this book and I said, okay, let me focus on the leadership stories here and then do that one, that one separately. But certainly that one they come in. That one that one coming for sure.

Corie: 1:46:05

Well, good. So tell us where we're getting this one now. We'll we'll put a link to Amazon, but where are people to get it?

Speaker 1: 1:46:10

Well, well, of course, Amazon, right? Um, it's it's going to be in bookshops across the country soon in the next couple of weeks. And um, but in the meantime, I do have some non-traditional spaces that um uh pharmacy on Beyond, which is close to where I am in the Philippine. Um, they're gonna have it. Uh Toy Story in in Long Sekinam All and Office Link on uh Rushwood Street in San Fernando.

Corie: 1:46:32

Well, good, well, keep us posted as you have those locations. We again I would encourage anybody to read it. No, not that this is man, them things, right? You know what I mean? It's as thick as it gets, but it it really is a great book. It's really as you go through it, these stories are compelling. Yeah, and it's almost like one of those things you said about unexpected teachers, where you're learning without you know, feeling like you're reading a textbook, you're not even realizing how many things. Yeah, and even as you said, hold up damn mirror to it, yeah. It's like, okay, I could do this differently, I could do this better, I could see it. So, congrats, congrats on it. Thank you very much. I just want to close by saying now we book them. You have all the time in the world to play at that you've been running from for all this.

Speaker 1: 1:47:12

I haven't been doing but when I was writing the book.