Shaka Hislop on Prostate Cancer & Why Men Need to Get Tested

Shaka Hislop joins us for one of the most powerful conversations we’ve ever had.

From representing Trinidad & Tobago at the 2006 FIFA World Cup to building a career at the highest levels of English football and broadcasting, Shaka reflects on legacy, pressure, and purpose.

But this episode goes deeper.

Shaka opens up about his prostate cancer diagnosis, the reality of having no symptoms, and how a routine test may have saved his life. He shares the emotional challenge of telling his children, the mindset he adopted to fight, and why more Caribbean men need to take their health seriously.

We also get into:

• His response to the Trinidad & Tobago FA President’s comments on Dwight Yorke
• The realities behind World Cup qualification
• Life in the Premier League and the pressure of elite football
• Parenting, identity, and representing Trinidad & Tobago on the world stage

This is a conversation about football — but more importantly, it’s about life.

Transcript

Homecoming And A Dad’s Nerves

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Watching your daughter playing at national level. The only thing I'm thinking about is just do embarrass the family. You or her? Me. Me. Everybody's cancer journey is very different. My immediate reaction was, Well, there's a fight. All right, let me go. The most difficult thing I I did, and I I to this day handle it extremely poorly, was tell my kids.

Corie 0:23

Present a TTF is a five out of ten as a coach. I thought I was an awful statement.

SPEAKER_02 0:28

He then had a response, which I don't think covered him in an awful lot of glory either. And I'm not gonna lie, I struggled. My first season, I really struggled. And I remember telling my dad, like, I don't want to go back. When you're an outfield player and you're having a great game, you want that game to last forever. When you're a goalkeeper and you're having a great game, you want the game to done now. When the final whistle win to run straight into Dwight and Russell, we play on the under 12 together. And now here we are, taking chance to be with our first ever workout. If we had a steel John and his prime, the team would have qualified. No question. We didn't have a strike off. We've missed a new boy Corey. You are now flying the first on Cory Stepper. Corey Stepper Corey Stepper Corey Stepper Podcast.

Corie 1:14

Mommy looked on the two. It's gonna be sexy. Welcome to the Corey Stepper Podcast. Welcome back to everybody who's been listening and watching. Thanks for tuning in. Glad to have you here. I have with me today a footballing legend, broadcasting legend. We do a little bit of research on every guest, right? And what comes up more and more is a great husband, real family man. And I gotta tell you that so many people said the term quality man. We said, that's wrong about people. And they just keep saying quality man. Before I tell you who they're quality man, I'd rather tell you that I spent my life as a striker, right? On number nine. If it had nine and a half, I'd be that. They used to call me Corey Sternbunkerscore John Shepherd back in the day. So the whole purpose of this tour was to just keep scoring, right, David? We just don't put things past people. Welcome to the show, Shaka Hisler. What are you going to?

SPEAKER_02 2:05

I good, my brother. I'm good, I'm good. I don't I don't pay you to come around and introduce me everywhere, buddy. That is that is the best introduction I've had in my life. That was real good, buddy.

Corie 2:17

What are you doing, brother?

SPEAKER_02 2:18

I good, I doing good.

Corie 2:19

Good to catch you in Trinidad, man. Good to be here.

SPEAKER_02 2:21

Yeah, as as fleeting as it as it is this time as it usually is, it's always good to be home.

Corie 2:27

You say you come home to watch your daughter play. Correct. Yeah, with Stadium Friday. That's right. Yeah, how is it as a dad boy watching and doing doing this for so long and watching your daughter play at national level now?

SPEAKER_02 2:36

I know way. I I'm not gonna lie to you. My focus I on the flight coming down last night, and the only thing I'm thinking about is just don't embarrass the family. You or her? Me. Me. I like boy. I really don't know what those emotions will hit like. Um seeing her out there, you know, kind of recognizing her her own journey in in this game and how she's created her own space, her own identity, and then just being a parent, kind of again, seeing her own progression as a little girl, kind of playing this game for the first time, and everything that's that's come with it, and all of a sudden to pull on to pull on the red, white, and black trying to bagel. I don't know how that will impact me. Because I'll say I say this all the time, man. I used to say it in reference to my my own career. I was a fan a long time before I was a player, and I'll remain a fan a long time after after retirement. And that's still who I am at heart. I'm I'm a fan, I'm a I'm a Tran Tobago national fan. So being out there and seeing my daughter play, um, again, it comes with a set of emotions that I don't I don't know what those emotions will look like or if or how I handle them.

Corie 3:50

Yeah. But you see, I'll play coming up, so you'll be watching her play all the time. But national is different. It's it's very different.

SPEAKER_02 3:56

It's very different. Kind of, you know, my my wife is also from Trantobago. We raise our kids to understand that, and though they were all born outside outside of Trantabago, we've lived our well, they've lived their lives outside of Trantabago. Their identity and attachment to Trantobago has always been paramount in our household. Um, so just kind of understanding that and and again recognizing that as as it pertains to me, as a father, as somebody who's played this game, um, maybe taking a lot of it for granted, seeing her out there, um, we'll hit very differently.

Corie 4:32

Yeah. And I suppose you in the stands there watching, remembering your days and them kind of thing. Is them kind of parallels or you just want to do that?

SPEAKER_02 4:39

Nah, I I get to support my my days still really come into come into come into to my figuring around this. You know, I don't I don't think, you know, rightly or wrongly, when when you're when you're playing, you're playing. You know that's what I do. That's what I used to do for a living. You know, and and you go out and you play football and um you come off your field and you go and you do it again, you know, rinse and repeat kind of thing. And you take a lot of it for granted. And especially now as I've moved further away from from retirement and I look back on on those times in my playing, um, you you recognize how much of it, how much of the journey maybe you took for granted. Um and now so so as I say, so it how how it feels, how her journey feels to me feels very differently to how my journey felt to me.

Corie 5:26

Gotcha, gotcha. And Nia's a striker, right?

SPEAKER_02 5:28

She's a striker.

Corie 5:28

That's what you're doing. You say anything about goalkeeper, she had a goal property. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 5:32

Let me tell you something. So my mother always is a my mother always complaining about having a goalkeeper as a child, and she's like, man, I come into watch, I come to watch my son play, but I don't want the ball to come anywhere near it. That is that is kind of and and I fully understand that. Right. I've I've uh uh um so my wife and I, we've got five kids. Uh our eldest danced, our seconded gymnastics, uh, our youngest three are all played football. Um so our third daughter, um, she go keep for a while. When she was much younger, for about six months, and it was it was awful. I I I think it was awful for me. It's probably awful for her too. But it was awful for me because again, you don't, you know, and as I say, she was much younger, and at that time, they used to feel every time a goal scored, it was it was their fault. Uh, you know, she'd be in tears in the goal, and I'm there feeling helpless on the sideline. And and of course, you know, your dad used to be a goalkeeper, and there's a certain expectation, um, rightly or wrongly, that comes from the fans or the coach, well, not fans, the other parents and and coaches, etc. Which I can't remember, it was unfair. So I I as a as a as a parent didn't enjoy that six months of seeing uh uh a third daughter playing goal for a bit.

Corie 6:42

But as a fan or as a parent, I'm a fan, you have that little Bron James thing where you're on the sideline telling the coaches thing and so my kids were very um very particular about me not being involved.

SPEAKER_02 6:56

Don't talk to nobody. If the ball comes by you, just let it pass. Just try to blend into the background as best you could. So I've I've never I've never gotten involved. I've I've I've if they come to me and ask my uh my ask my opinion on something, if that's direction on something, I'll give it. But if they don't ask, I'm just well done. Yeah. You know, and and and and keep it moving as best I could.

Corie 7:25

Yeah, so even as a parent, it's no one solicited that events you don't do it.

SPEAKER_02 7:29

No, I the the I I do not discuss the game a bit coaches or try nothing discuss it with parents, nothing. I just I'm I'm I'm there to support.

Corie 7:44

As a parent, now you're looking at your children coming up. You had dreams of them doing the same things you're doing, or you all just support them?

SPEAKER_02 7:50

I I I just wanted them to be happy and and and still that that is still I I wanted them to find their own paths. As I mentioned, my eldest daughter danced, and anybody who sees me in a carnival party know that in mighting. My second daughter did gymnastics again. Anybody who sees me try to touch my toes, know that in mighting. That that was that was all they're doing. They they found their passions and and and carved their own paths. And uh our youngest three other say all play football, but again, that was that was their choosing.

Corie 8:22

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Now I was watching your in a recent interview at Bajio TV. We've been trying to book this for some time. Yeah, and I remember the first time we called you, you said you'll do it, much to my surprise. I was like, all right, there's a lot of pressure now. You know, you asked for something and now you get it, what are you gonna do? And we had some delays and so on. And something David and I talk about all the time. I say, boy, sometimes we invite people on and something might be going on with that. It's not nothing to do with us. I say, boy, just give people time. Hopefully

Prostate Cancer Diagnosis And Mindset

Corie 8:45

you will come at some point. And then we saw you're announcing this cancer diagnosis. Shake, shake all of us up. I can't imagine what it was like for you.

SPEAKER_02 8:51

Yeah, yeah. It was um, it's been an interesting 18 months, uh, probably a little bit more at this point, you know. Um to get to get the diagnosis. And now I always I always say that um footballers have an almost fatal self-belief about them, you know. Um, you feel indestructible. And and in in many ways, you need to have that mindset to to achieve at that level, certainly in sports. Um and and I I was no different in in that way, you know. You just feel, yeah, I'm I'm a professional footballer, I real good. I use it well, I used to be, I I real good. And then, you know, all of a sudden, um I go to the doctor and it's like, well, something ain't looking right here. But even then, you're thinking, no, I I I used to be a professional footballer. Um and then you get a diagnosis, and then there's an immediate shift in mindset. Well, certainly for me. And and I I'll speak about my my journey because I I've realized that everybody's journey, in particular cancer journey, is very different, looks differently, feels very differently. Um for me, I I my immediate reaction was well, there's a fight. All right, let me go. You know, um this is how this is how I've I've kind of lived my life as a competitor. And this wasn't this was just another competition that I'm in. Um and that was my mindset. And then so I so I got that diagnosis, so uh it was first in in October of 2024. October of 2024. Um November I had had my biopsy and and uh was told that um the cancer was was fairly aggressive, so I needed to operate pretty quickly. Had it had an operation in early December, um had a blood test in February of 2025, excuse me. Um and everything was fine, and then all of a sudden, and I I I will tell this longer story to it because it's always interesting um how how and when these things happen. I go to England in June of 2025. Show resently Redcard are having uh uh Hall of Fame ceremony and 10 Downing Street are hosting. Uh Sir Kiash Dammer, the the uh British Prime Minister is is is is there, he's in attendance. Um I go to meet, I go to meet with with Shorish and Redcard, senior management and and staff before before this event, and I got a call from a doctor. It's like I wait I had a blood test a c a couple weeks before. So I I kind of figure that this might be the case. And um it's like well, listen, we've there's been spread. The cancer spread, so this is gonna take some more work. I get that call, let me see, UK time. I get that call probably about two o'clock, about two o'clock UK time.

Corie 11:59

And it's after the initial surgery.

SPEAKER_02 12:01

Yeah, so this is yeah, so the the initial surgery was done December 24th. This is June 25. I got a call about two o'clock in uh British time uh from a surgeon saying, yeah, there's been spread, so that there's gonna, we're gonna need to do some more work on you to get you right. Um two hours later, I'm in the gardens of 10 Downing Street, you know, kind of palling around with circuit stammer, you know, and and these are the things that, you know, so now I'm I'm kind of having to smile through that event. And uh I'm giving speeches and you know, again, you know, um with the British Prime Minister, etc. And it just kind of speaks to um how life keeps on life in, you know, through through it all. And and that's what I've I've that kind of I've tried to maintain. And through through this entire journey, I've tried to try to keep doing the things that I've always done and and not break stride as as as uh I un unless absolutely necessary. Now, I I I say all this not to say that you know it's been smooth, that I've made it look easy. I've I've had some really tough days. I've had some tough days. Um but I I have an incredible support around me. Um my wife, my kids have have always been there for me. And when those tough days come, I've been able to lean on them. Um and so I've uh I've I've managed to navigate this whole issue um in a way that again maybe one day I'll look back with a certain amount of pride, if if not accomplishment.

Privacy, Going Public, And Testing

Corie 13:34

Yeah, and I guess a lot of your life has been lived in public. Yeah. So to deal with that publicly, you're shaking and smiling, you're always on camera.

SPEAKER_02 13:41

Yeah, I'm my my entire I say this all the time, my entire adult life I've I've lived in the public eye. Um so I've been very careful about my private life. My private life I've kept private. And in little ways. In in little ways, is that I've I do not do interviews in my house. If you want to come and interview me, we'll we'll meet in a hotel, we'll meet somebody. My house, that's my private space, you're not coming in there. Um so I've just tried to make sure and always have those, have those private spaces where we can be a family and we can you know be as as as we are without without um without that ever being um intruded on. Um and so this similarly, um you know, my wife and I discuss it along for you know almost throughout, almost throughout throughout that my diagnosis and and and the journey. When do I go public with it? Um because I I felt I should go public with it. And and I felt so in having conversations with um my best friend is is Dr. Wayne Fredericks, a surgical oncologist by training. Um, and I I understand I understand um cancer. How well let me say understand I understand the impacts that cancer has through through uh Dr. Fredericks' own work. I also understand the the impacts that prostate cancer has, particularly in our community. Um as black men, we're more prone to get it. We the outcomes are far more dire because we we have this um we have this taboo around um well first the the the digital exam and you know the old talk that comes with it, so we don't do it, and so it's almost as though ignorance becomes our strength until it's too late. Um so I always felt that I always knew that I was gonna go public with with my diagnosis and my journey. Um if if at least uh to to raise awareness, if at least to have other people go get tested, if if at least just uh that we as black men, as as Caribbean men can be more honest in our dialogue around our health, uh be more supportive. Um so I I did that, and and I will say the response from Sydney, Sydney, my friends and those closest to me has been has been incredible, has been overwhelming. Um the amount of people that have called me and said, well, yeah, I'm listening since I see a video, I go and get my test done. I couldn't ask for any more than that. Because we have to we have to continue to look out for and support each other. Something we we we don't do well enough as as men and in particular black Caribbean men.

Corie 16:16

Yeah, I see the points I handled with. I was actually surprised when you got to somewhere in the video and you started. It almost felt like you were thinking about us in a moment where you could be completely selfish.

SPEAKER_02 16:25

I mean, it's it's but I I think we at times we have to be, you know, and and listen, I as as men, we we uh we we feel right or wrongly, because I I'm I'm as guilty of this as anybody and and still am. Um we we're here to provide, we're here to protect. Um we we aren't supposed to ask for anything, we aren't supposed to ask for help. We're not supposed to falter. We're supposed to be the rock in in in in our family, and and um so to to to to have to ask for help, to have to to to lean on someone almost goes against of who culturally we we positioned ourselves. Um and and if if if that's the case, then you know, if if you want to remain strong for your family, then you've got to find that support in in your friendships, in your community. And and and again, I I think that's something that we haven't done a good job of just being being friends, yeah, being being support in in those moments, um, which we all need.

Corie 17:37

Yeah, I think as men, all of us guilty of it, you know. Comfortability old talk and go in and them things, but when it gets a little serious, it feels like I feel like I should go inward rather than go outward at times I go.

SPEAKER_02 17:48

Listen, I I again uh ignorance is is is not is not bliss, you know. Um ignorance is where it may may be blessed blissful. It it it certainly isn't it doesn't help in in in in who we are and and and our course certainly as far as as far as this goes. Um so sometimes we have those have those you know have those more serious moments where you can talk. We can still all talk. We can still lime and all talk and go about with business and um that doesn't change. Didn't change for me. I I still lime and hang out. I was here for carnival and my wife earlier this year. That that didn't change, you know. Life, life continues to life. But you've also got to have those those moments and be honest in those moments about when you know things might feel a little a little heavy, a little overwhelming.

Corie 18:38

Yeah, and as a parent and father, the thing I hear most about you when I ask people about you. Uh I had it's about impact of cancer, right? As a as a teenager, I live my life, I just haven't a good time, scoring goals as a say in the beginning, right? Multiples. Well, that's that's not for question. But we've got evidential documentation as another podcast altogether. I feel like another assessment. But you we and I I life life, like you say, I just focused on what I'm trying to do next. And I remember my mom calling me and said she had breast cancer. Yeah. And like in that moment, I saw self-absorb, your teenager trying to figure out. I don't know what it's like for her to have to say that. When I look at you doing that, I see some of the things you do after. It made me realize now that maybe she didn't know how to say it.

SPEAKER_02 19:23

Right.

Telling The Kids And Living With Fear

Corie 19:24

Or what or what to do.

SPEAKER_02 19:25

Nah, I listen, I I I I sympathize. Um, the most difficult thing I I did, and I I to this day handle it extremely poorly, was tell my kids. For a long time, we were trying to we were trying to um figure out when do we tell our kids. So as I say, I had my biopsy early November of 2024. We live in the state, so Thanksgiving is a big holiday, and everybody comes back, and and we are no different. All our kids at this point, our eldest two live in different states. Uh uh third lives on on her own in Massachusetts. Um so we knew they were gonna come back home. And so just in talking to my wife about it, the feeling was well, let's let's tell them before so it's not, you know, we could kind of get it out the way and we could enjoy Thanksgiving without this kind of being a a cloud hanging over, hanging over the the the that holiday. Um as and as it turned out, well, as has happened, my my son was going away. Um, he had a uh an indoor football tournament in in Spain in December. So the plan was we'll all go to Spain, and that'll be our Christmas. We all go to Spain and and and spend some time out there as a family, and then and then this diagnosis changed all that. Um so now I'm I'm telling them, you know, video call, my wife's next to me, and I tell them what's happening, and I just transition straight away into well, listen, because still I wouldn't be able to go to Spain, but you're gonna go to Spain, I'll be here, I'll be alright, but my doctor don't and then my wife stops me and she's like, Listen, Shake Shaka, stop, let the kids let the kids digest this. And then I look at the screen and everybody's in tears, and I am heartbroken. Because again, I'm I'm not supposed to be putting my kids through this. I I really I I and I a sense of a sense of guilt in that moment came over me. And also just how poorly I handled it. I I didn't give them space to ask questions, to be concerned, to express themselves. I just move on to well, Oliver go to spill. You can still go, Oliver still goes to the human thing, you know.

Corie 21:38

Exactly. Exactly, exactly.

SPEAKER_02 21:40

You know, and as I say, I I I there's so much of this that I handled really poorly, and I wish I could get to do over again. But you know, that's part of of uh I guess being human, you know, kind of um and part of my own growth, part of my own journey, recognizing, you know. Recognizing the difference in how me feel to me to how it impacts other people. Um and as much as I ask them for for for space and for grace to to to manage this, I I also have to to allow them to understand because to your point, Corey, you know, your your mom calls you and and tells you she has breast cancer, that that hits you very differently. And now here I am telling my kids similarly. And then I have to and then one of the other things that that kind of struck me um later on when I was diagnosed with spread, I call the kids again and say, listen, this is what's happening, I have to have more. And call ends. Um I think my second daughter called me, they they put it on her to call me. So apparently all the kids started calling. So after the call finished, they they all the kids started calling. Yeah, yeah. And they're like, right, Kasha, our second daughter, Kasha, you you really want her to call dad. So she called and she's like, Dad, are you okay? And I'm like, Yeah, I'm fine. I I really am. And we have a conversation. But even that, and then afterwards, you know, so my my youngest daughter, Nia, who's the international team, she then she her response was dad always says it's fine. Like no matter what, dad always says it's fine. So even me saying I'm fine didn't really comfort them any, you know. So I had to be kind of mindful, mindful of some of those things and and and how they feel and you know um their their concern around around my own my own mortality, you know. Those are difficult things for kids to for kids, as you know, those are difficult things for for for kids just to kind of um navigate.

Corie 23:45

Yeah, and we we we had to give ourselves grace too, because the thing is it's new, yeah. Yeah, yeah, I I can imagine just putting myself in my mother's shoes you're talking about, is he? You can't figure it out, you don't know what's so her conversation with me was very much similar to yours. She was like, but you have exams and it doesn't mean exactly comparison.

SPEAKER_02 24:02

No, that's that in your yeah. So I I was saying, like I say, I just start talking about yeah, only one telephone, we don't go to Barcelona, but I go chill here, I could be I and and and and like I say, that could that was the first thing from anybody else's mind, which I didn't recognize anymore.

Corie 24:17

But the truth is when I look back at it now, I could see where we were both because I mean if I ask her, she might talk about things that she could do differently. I certainly would because I don't know how to process that at the time, especially against the backdrop of Acelonia Sheppy, is my cousin. We have an aunt who passed from cancer, yeah. She'll Sheppy closest family, you know. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I can imagine what that's like for her. We're trying to process it. But the truth is when you look back at it, we kind of went through it together. Yeah, of course. Imperfectly, whatever it was, you know?

SPEAKER_02 24:41

Of course. And I think that's one of the things as you get older, you you recognize, you know, that um there's no there's no real playbook for a lot of this. There's no playbook for for growing up, you know, and having to deal with some of these some of these issues, you know. There are examples and you can hear stories, but every single genius is is so different that you know you have to give yourself that grace to make mistakes, um, and and and just but just keep putting one foot in front of the other.

Corie 25:10

So something we gotta ask yourself was a mistake, you know. Is it it's really right?

SPEAKER_02 25:14

Yeah.

Corie 25:14

So you're feeling no. Near say is only say feel good, eh? It's good.

SPEAKER_02 25:22

But really feel good. Okay, good. But you know, that that's one of the things I I think that was um most scary in that I had no symptoms. I had no pain.

Corie 25:31

And you said you were getting checked regularly. I get checked. I was getting checked regularly.

SPEAKER_02 25:34

I I get every year, every year I get a full, full physical, full blood work, everything. And um it could caught it this time around. And well, I say caught it. This time around, all of a sudden it noticed a spike in my PSA levels. But otherwise, I was going about my business as good as ever. I go into the gym as we discussing. I don't play football, so I I got it. You don't know that. Now I done with that, I done with that. So I go into the gym, I do my thing, I run a little 5k very slowly, but I run in my 5k egg, right? Um and just go and felt great. And and just as I say, go for my annual annual physical and it catches a spike in in my PSA. Um and and I also tell a story, because I I read a story about um British cyclist, Chris Foy, um British, I think six-time medalist, Olympic medalist. In the UK, they don't offer PSA testing, blood testing as standard. Um he was going about his business uh uh just as I was, going to the gym as I as I had been and and try to continue to do. Got a pain in the shoulder, 30 strains of ligaments, goes and gets checked, turns out he had prostate cancer, it spread all the way to his shoulder. And they gave him two years to live. Now that so easily could have been my story. It it really, really could, because I was just going about my business as coolly as as as anything. And it's only because I I got that PSA test, only because I insist that whenever I go for my my annual um medical, I get full blood work. Every everything you can test for, test me for it. And and and and that's how it's caught. And and and that was the difference between you know a circus foy, who I think he's got two kids, two two daughters, seven and nine, and and they've given him two years to live. Um that the only difference is I I got my PSA test, and and because you in my case, and as as in Sir Chris Foy's, I had no no symptoms at all. I had no pain otherwise.

Corie 27:35

Yeah, it's interesting. And and you're talking about you know living in the public eye and maintaining your private life, but you you chose this what what could be your most private moment to kind of send a message to us and help us.

SPEAKER_02 27:47

Well, yes, because I I think a lot of men, a lot of men kind of battle with it, uh uh, not just not just the cancer, but battle with getting tested, um what what the those side effects uh may be post post-surgery or whatever it may be. Um a lot of men just kind of battle with that, and and a lot of that is is down to um in many ways societally how we've kind of defined our manhood. Now um I which which which you know I I I understand if I if I don't sympathize with. Um it's not how I've defined myself. Um so I've been comfortable with with with the journey. I've been comfortable with the side effects, I've been comfortable with what life looks like for me now now going forward. So I have no no real issue speaking about any aspect, any aspect of that.

Corie 28:41

Yeah, and it's interesting because when we look at a professional footballer's youth, it's like a hero is a giant, a superhero. So you know you endorse so many different products. So I appreciate you endorsing that message and saying that to many of us. And if you're seeing the impact, uh it was a funny thing you said with with Badger as well. Well, you come, you do your video, you're turning off your phone. I can't imagine what your phone was like with the background.

SPEAKER_02 29:00

I just switched it off. Actually, my wife was out of town, my wife was out, so she didn't even know I was gonna do it. No, I've knew I yeah, no, nobody, nobody knew. I knew I knew I was gonna do it. And then um, and and my wife again had to go out of town with my son for football. And I was just like, you know what? Let me put this video now. And let me just I just can't take my phone off. I'm gonna sleep, yes. So I took my phone off boy when I took my phone back on next morning. Mad chaos mad chaos. Because because to a point, um nobody knew. I'm one of the things about it. So certainly I had to go through um seven and a half weeks of radiation. Uh I'm I'm on medication, I'll be on medication for the next three years. That that won't change, um, as I say, till till till then. Um I had to go through seven weeks of radiation, but I didn't take any time any work time of work. I continued to go in, do the show as normal, um, you know, be as present as I ever had been. Um I I was here in Trinidad in in September. Um my dad passed late August, and then as it happened, I'd planned to come to Trinidad for the work of qualifiers. My initial plan was to come in November for the last two qualifiers, which were two home games, and I was sure that we were we were gonna be qualifying. So I was like, right, I'm coming in November. And then and then I get the diagnosis, and they say, well, this is how it's gonna work, what was gonna happen, and you're gonna have to have seven and a half weeks of radiation, and which kind of rule out, which kind of rule out um November. So I was like, you know what, let me come for the first game, and I was actually gonna go to Jamaica for the second game, but my my dad passed. Um so I had to cancel the Jamaica leg of uh of that of that fan experience of me being a fan. Um it's a workout. Yeah, yeah. So uh so it's uh I was here I was here even for that. I was here even for that, and and you know, I hadn't told anybody, but as I mentioned, I was already on medication, so I wasn't drinking, so people say, What happened? You're saying that. I was like, no, I'm an antibiotics, but I had antibiotics. So I I just had to kind of let you know let a whole thing. That is the only reason you can't be drinking. If somebody, if somebody sees you a drink, and the only thing is you had to be on antibiotics. So I was just like, yeah, but I had antibiotics, but these people and people leave alone.

Corie 31:26

People leave alone.

SPEAKER_02 31:27

So yeah, yeah, yeah.

Corie 31:28

Yeah, and you said in that interview to the Rose Bowl thing was completely displayed.

SPEAKER_02 31:32

Completely separate, completely separate, and it seems to be a been a one-off. And in many ways, I look back on the quarry. Um it was because I again I I feel like bulletproof, you know. I I feel like nothing could hurt me, you know. And then so even though I'm kind of going through life and you know, having my blood test, and so I'm I I am so and then all of a sudden this happens, and and now I'm like, hold on, I really need to start taking so many different aspects of my health a lot more seriously. So it was a wake-up call. It was a wake-up call that I I'll be honest, had it not been as as public and as dramatic as it was, I don't think I would have taken seriously anyway. Because I just, you know, again, yeah, yeah, yeah, not car hoot me. Type of thing. So it it was um it was a little bit of a it was it was a wake-up call, a a very personal, very public one, but um, but one that that I needed. Okay,

World Cup Misses And Missing A Striker

SPEAKER_02 32:27

gotcha.

Corie 32:27

Well, we just spent about 45 minutes breaking every hip of violation. I'm not assigned something somewhere, I didn't know if that was included.

SPEAKER_02 32:35

Let's please, let's, let's please move on, let's please move on to other things. Lighter things.

Corie 32:40

President of TTF is right here, because I have five out of ten as a coach, you know, bring this up, right? I didn't plan to talk about this, but I like you. I surprised say you say I was I'm glad you say it to me. Because since they had the World Cup draw, right? And I saw the expansion of the World Cup and USA, Canada, Mexico hosting, so they qualified. I say, well, then that in them times what the heck's on my mind still, guys. I say we bound to qualify as a professional in this. You you feel any same thing?

SPEAKER_02 33:07

I I I felt I I'll be honest, I thought in in the group that we were drawing, I thought Jamaica were favorites to qualify. Well, I thought yeah, Jamaica have been have been consistently better than us over the last five, if not ten years.

SPEAKER_01 33:22

Consistently.

SPEAKER_02 33:22

And you've seen that in them getting to semi-finals in the Gold Cup. They got a final a few years ago. Um where where we've we've kind of struggled to make any kind of an impact. Um, but I I thought I already felt Dwight had a team moving in the right direction. The team was playing well. Um, and I thought playing well enough to qualify. Um I I maintain I think we were missing one player. We were missing uh a Stone John Tech. We were missing you, boy Cory.

Corie 33:55

We should have called you. You could have gotten a couple of years. No, now that I think about it.

SPEAKER_02 33:58

Come on. Come on. You you was the player we were missing out. But for your Achilles, but for your Achilles, we're not qualified for the World Cup. Achilles we needed a striker, yeah, you know. Um, in in with the greatest respect to Sealy, Levi Garcia, and Spicer, all three of them are wingers. Good wingers, um, good attacking players, but don't have a goal scorers instinct. If we had a still John and his prime, this team would have qualified, no question, in in my mind. Um so I think that that was just the one piece that that we were missing. But I thought the team was playing well. I thought the team was playing well enough to qualify. Um, so of course, and and you know, it was a disappointment for us not to. And as much as you know, I've played this game, I'm an analyst, I'm I'm a fan for this. And I show up at the stadium. I remember driving into the stadium. Um, I came in with my mom and my wife and family um for that for that first game against Q. So I feel a nervous, but I feel like as I played, but I I I was I had this nervous excitement about man, you know, and um uh I I really thought, yeah, we we we could do it. And and and and that's every fan's perspective, you know. That's all right. Especially kind of football we play in that game. I remember there was one uh I I can't go who was it? It might have been uh it might have been Sealy. I have no idea how the ball didn't go in. You keep a make a kind of save day and it kind of just loop up and on and slow, like the ball moving in slow motion and a blind on the roof of the net. And I we just you know, the the the Lady Luck just wasn't with us on the day, you know. Um but I I I again I as a fan, I'm coming there, you know, just expecting the best. Even if the even if the ex-player or the analyst in me feels differently. The fan kind of came to the fore, and I was hoping for a whole lot more. So of course in in the end it was disappointing, but I again the the analyst in me felt it was it was Jamaica's group to win. Yeah um and it was gonna take something a little special from us to get the better of them.

Corie 36:10

Yeah, like all that's annoyed. Just curious.

SPEAKER_02 36:13

And they yeah, curious, I would come in and do it. Yeah, I mean, I I didn't see that coming, and well, there's been and fallout not only in Trinidad, but there'd been a lot of fallout in in Jamaica around their failure to qualify.

Corie 36:25

Yeah, yeah. I mean, that was that was their their their finishing up was exciting under City Lee some coach leave and coach coming and all kind of yeah, all kind of thing.

SPEAKER_02 36:34

All kinds of things.

Corie 36:35

But you've been vocal on this with the administration. I want to talk about the fans separately, but you've been vocal about the administration and so on. So I was I was I was a little surprised when I hear an interview that soon after Dwight York is no longer the head coach and we seem to be in a transition coaching then king again. I don't know if he gets any job or his transition or not, that he comes out and he says something like, Okay, I give him a five order.

SPEAKER_02 36:55

Yeah, I I thought I thought I was an awful statement. I uh no other way to put it. And now listen, here the the truth is um Director's being well paid um for the job that he was for the job that that he was doing or had been asked to do. Um and because of how our our finances are structured, um we we're now gonna have a a two-year lull before things ramp up again for Wake Up Qualifiers. And we couldn't afford to carry that that um that that financial load over those two years. So some either either Dwight had either Dwight had kind of accepted a huge pay cut to stay on, um or they would have to we'd have to part ways. That that's just how our football is run, because because of how how reliant we are on on FIFA financing, etc. Right? That's just the reality of it. Now, if Dwight decides he he does not want to take that that pay cut that um, you know, he he he he's not gonna settle for it, then you know, amicably you you agree and and and you move on. But it was this kind of there's this disconnect bet between um President Kieran Edwards and Dwight around around those conversations and those those negotiations, which I didn't quite understand. You know, it it's simple, you know, either you take a paycut or not. And then all of a sudden he comes out with a statement, which I I thought was just plain awful. I I I I really do. I I it it felt as though it felt as though Kieran Edwards was self-protecting. Because he he in truth, he'd done a lot um to get Dwight into job, and and albeit with with with the help of at the time the the the the the the prime minister. Um but he'd done a lot to get Dwight into position. I I didn't see the need other than to self-protect protect, and and I don't see the need to self-protect um for him to come out and and and say what what what he did about Dwight. And I thought that was awful. I I would also say, and I haven't spoken to Dwight about this, um certainly not yet. I thought his his he then did uh had a response which was was uh carried by white success say it, which I I don't think covered him in an awful lot of glory either. You know, sometimes you just have to you just have to kind of take that knock on your chin um in in lieu of of the bigger picture, and and the bigger picture always will be what's best for our football, not what's best for your career going forward, not what's best for you as president and whatever elections you may have coming up, but what's best for our football overall. And I thought between Dwight and in particular Kieran Edwards, what they had to say was not in the best interest of our football.

Corie 39:36

Yeah, something that maybe it bothers me just as a fan. Yeah. Because uh, when I look at your legacy, Dwight to me, Dwight York is still Dwight York. Of course.

SPEAKER_02 39:44

And I would always will be, always should be.

Corie 39:47

Yeah, that's that's right, that's right. For me as a fan, yeah, yeah. And I I would be guarded about anything that I say about it. Of course, especially given the fact that anybody, a layman like me, could see that um maybe the Bong City Ball, he pitched on it, they all kind of different things went wrong with us why we can qualify. So it's like maybe I didn't look at it from your perspective of what Dwight responded as well. Because I guess naively I feel like Dwight could see where we feel. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 40:10

Yeah. But I I thought in his statement he was critical of well, he's quite clearly critical of K and Edwards, but he was critical of other aspects of our football that I I didn't think was wanted.

Corie 40:21

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So you you you had your issues with that going back to, and I I suppose we we we all sit in here watching them. Sure, they're going to qualify again. Yeah. You were on that qualifying team back then, and you see so many things. I see documentaries been done about it now, saying what was the disconnect between that feeling that you had when you're qualified and then what happened after that.

Money, Promises, And Football Politics

SPEAKER_02 40:43

Well, uh in terms of in terms of the players getting banned, etc. Yeah. Yeah, that were that was so that that was my my um my perspective on that is is different or and and would would always be different almost in its nature because I was gonna retire anyway. You know, it's 2006. Um I 2006 was my last year in English football. I went and spent a year in MLS and I retired, so I was gonna retire from international football anyway. Um but Draco and I have had a a well-documented history. Um that's about putting it as nicely as as I can uh for some time. And then you know, we had this issue. And I and I I don't make me a promise and and break it. I um see and and this is and this is the thing I think that a lot of fans certainly in in in passing their opinions and their their perspectives, um at times Jack Warner was getting wrong. You know, people talking about oh, all these footballers, all they're busy talking about money and that's what I do. That's what I've done my entire career. I play football for money. And to put to put it bluntly, and I negotiate while I'm playing. You know, so don't say, well, all they have a game, and and all have a game tomorrow, but all they're calling me up today to discuss money. That's work. That's what I've done for 15 years. That's what I've done. I I negotiate around around my my appearance. And I I rightly or wrongly, as a professional footballer, expect to be uh compensated for that. That's that's what I do, that's my job. So while other people, you big striker, yeah, happy to kind of happy to do it, you know, for the bigger. Like a Cisic Boy's dream thing, you know?

Corie 42:31

Yeah, you think you could get it.

SPEAKER_02 42:34

Absolutely it is. I I I I totally get that. You know, um, you know that everybody dreams of playing and now we get to live out those dreams, and our our focus, not primary, but secondary focus, is what we're getting paid uh to do it. But that's what we do, that's my job. I I I don't do anything else for a living. I just play football for a living. So I don't, you know, I I I I didn't understand the criticism around, well, all you're asking to get to get paid, or you're all negotiating, how all you can focus on playing football when you negotiate. That's what we do. I've been doing my entire life. So anyway, so he made these promises to us and then reneged the promises. And my position was simple. No, I I come in, I I want what you promised me. And so if it means going to court, again, uh, it's not something I was afraid of or you know put off by. My father's a lawyer. I I understand that process. Or my father was a lawyer, excuse me. I I understood that process as well as anybody. Right? We go to court and and and let the courts decide and and we abide by what the courts decide. The courts made a decision that we were in the right, and this is what we were due. And we held out held out for that. As far as I was concerned, it's pretty simple. I I wasn't paying any attention to the noise. Yeah. That's you know, I again, those perspectives of fans and people outside would always be very different from from mine because this is what I do for a living.

Fans, Criticism, And Earning The Right

Corie 43:57

It's interesting. You can talk about them fans a little bit. Because in a previous interview that I wouldn't give Lasana Leibold and Win Shepherd credit for, I hear you talking about you were using a story about uh Nigel Paul a boxer. Yeah. And going to the Olympics and the ridicule that he faced when you get in the hole. First first boat he had. And I didn't even know some of his backstory. And I always wonder sometimes when you see you as an example, Dwight, we have we have these exceptional people coming from our country. Sometimes in spite of, I don't know if we have the systems to raise a shaka hissler, but sometimes somebody's come through the cracks and it's be amazing. You have a Keshwan and Lara. And when you spoke about it, it made me look at ourselves as fans and say, Well, you know, I wonder, I wonder how much of a disservice we're doing to people who go in out there to represent us. It's not it's not just trying to bagel, it's people.

SPEAKER_02 44:44

Um we like to criticize and we like to find a reason to criticize. And I I I say to my kids all the time, if if you're afraid of criticism, or if if you do not want to be criticized, then just do nothing. I suppose. Um but if you if you want to put yourself out there, if you want to chase a dream, that you you're putting yourself in the category of of being criticized for it. That's that's just I and I I think it's it's almost a feeling of human nature at times in that in an effort to for us to to feel better about ourselves or our our um our lack of achievement, we we try to drag those who are who are uh who are chasing chasing achievement. Um we try to drag them down to to our level. Um again, I I maybe it's part part of the a big part of the reason is because I I grew up before social media age, but I was kind of always happy to put myself out there. I'm I'm happy to to to fail and and pick myself. I I'll be the first to laugh at my failures. Uh and and um and and and and keep going. So while I've I've I've failed a lot, um there's a lot that I've achieved that I'm I'm I'm um I'm I'm proud of and can boast of. But that that doesn't mean that I I did not, I was not overly criticized at different points. Um and and that for me is why you know the the Nigel Paul story I I thought was was was such a powerful one. Because here you have a young man who never intended to try to just to give you the fullest story to your own your own listeners, who was had no intention of going to the Olympics. He would just pick up boxing to try and lose weight. And he just keep winning fights, winning fights, find himself, find himself in the Olympics, gets knocked down, and everybody's criticizing him for it. But that I that kind of that spirit, that spirit of this this is not too big for me, um, is is is is what I admire. And and I think at times here in Trian Tabina, where it applies um you know, maybe not uniquely, but but certainly um more closely with us is we come from a small come from a small island and we just have this attitude or this opinion that well, I just from a small country, I can't do that. You know, those big achievements are for people from the states and from England and from Europe. Well, no, no, big big achievements are are every bit ours to to to go out and and and grasp. Um it it being from a country of as a matter of fact, I think being from a country um as small as ours gives us certain advantages in that we we understand who we are and our position. We understand far more intimately our own positions in society, our own positions in life. Um and I I think it equips us better to go out and chase these these these big dreams, but so often we just kind of dismiss them um for reasons that I I don't I don't ascribe to.

Corie 47:58

Yeah, it's a real interesting point you were making about the fans because I remember being in smokey and buntsy. Well, yeah, at all run. I shouldn't say I was in smoky and bunty. I was in smokey and buntsy with Atoll. And I wonder sometimes if we have false expectations, like what's okay? So making it to the Olympics is a huge accomplishment, which maybe 1% of your society is make. Yeah. So Nigel, the man, the man in the Olympics.

SPEAKER_02 48:20

Man, we just he just pick up boxing trying to lose weight. He just wanted to do something to lose weight. I wonder where we can celebrate that. Well, exactly, and and that's my point. But so if I am a CEO of a company, that's who I want. That is who I want working from, that's who I want in my right hand. Somebody who's taking on big challenges. Yeah. That is who I want. And and that is why I I I just do I so I I don't I understand why people criticize him, and again, that is not reflective of Nigel Paul, his performance, whatever you make of it. The criticism is is reflective of the critic.

Corie 48:56

Yeah, 100%, 100%. And I saw it, and one of the points he was making is we criticize so heavily and we'd invest so little as fans. Yeah. Because I saw 2006 campaign was the same thing. I went to all them games. And by the time it comes down to the last, I cannot get a game. Same thing. From the time they announced Dwight, I when Dwight had his first game as uh coach, they played Dung in Coover once believe. Right, okay. And I reach about five minutes before the game done, because there's so much traffic I can get in the getting together. My son and is the end. So I wonder, I wonder sometimes about that that investment. And you're not talking about a monetary investment with fans, you're talking about just with the with the support.

SPEAKER_02 49:34

We we don't. We we we really don't. And and um I remember um Sydney, uh, at the time TTOC president Brian Lewis had invited me to to give the talk um for for the TTOC awards, which you hold in December. Um, should have been December 2016 after after that that that Rio Olympics. And it's the exact same thing. You earn the right to criticize. You win and and you earn the right by paying him money and showing up in the stadiums. You earn it, you earn that right by you're seeing an athlete from Belmont walking on the hill, give him a drop in the stadium to go and train. You know, game a bottle of water, whatever it may be. But in investing in our to use your term, Corey, invest in that way. But we we do nothing. We don't show up in the stadium, we don't show up, we don't cheer, we don't do nothing. We criticize the government for their elite athlete funding. We do all kind of thing. And then and then jump on social media and say the most god-awful things about about people who had the nerve to chase their dreams in ways that they didn't. I I I I don't get that.

Corie 50:41

Well, and we go in, we go in and hard on somebody who half of them people are saying that no final who's Nigel, Paul Gandhi. Because they never know what he's doing, they just find it. They don't know his journey, nothing. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's a cold world with sports fans. But you're playing in England, for instance, and know that that is one of the places that is the I'd say some of the most difficult fans. For instance, I was um in Germany for the 2006. I saw the difference between the Sweden game and the England game. Swed Swedish fans, you break all of their heart, but it was cool. It never felt hostile. Yeah, they were sad. The longer, the more time passes, the more tales than people are. I sort of feel uncomfortable after a while. But um, British fans is uh the front ball game.

SPEAKER_02 51:18

Yeah, they are they they they um they tribal in every single way, whether it's for club or country. And um, you know, it it at times it it it almost feels like like more than a more than a game for them. You know, on you on the one hand, you you you kind of use use that kind of attitude, that culture on the game, you draw parallels, South American fans are uh are are pretty similar in that way, and and you see how it it maybe um drive success in terms of um pressure of performance. But you you also see the negative side to it. You know, we talk about the the the three black players who missed penalties in in Euro 2020, um, and how that kind of manifested itself. It's it's a it's a it's a tough arena and and one again that you know I I can sit here and and boast of a of um 15-year professional career, 14 of them in England. Yeah, but there were tough times. There were there were times I seriously considered quitting. I I I really did. Um that it became almost too much to bear. Um I'm glad I stuck it out. But that that that that um you know I again that just kind of speaks to speaks to um failure and and having to to to rise

The Goalkeeper’s Thin Margins

SPEAKER_02 52:36

through it.

Corie 52:36

Yeah, you can give yourself the option. But you're talking before we started about the loneliness of a goalkeeper and not blame when you layer that because then three players who miss the penalties a second, they also crazy.

SPEAKER_02 52:46

You gain that as a keeper when you learn goals in and yeah, um, thankfully, you know, you learn enough goals, you realize, well, they ain't all my fault. So you know, yeah, yeah, adjust accordingly. You know, uh just accordingly. You know, listen, and and the truth is, and and a lot of times we talk about we talk about you know the goalkeepers union, and it's for that reason because goalkeepers understand understand the position and and how fragile it is for want of a better term. Goalkeepers understand that you can have an outstanding game and still lose founder. Goalkeepers understand that um you know a ball could hit you in the middle of your hand and goes around the post and you are praised for making an incredible save and everything that comes along with it. The black ball hits you half an inch lower. Oh. It goes down and it's in the back of the net, and people saying, Oh, well, what can I show me? You know, it's a completely different conversation around around half an inch. So we understand, we understand um how fragile and and how thin those margins are for goalkeepers, because you you know, thin in terms of whether you're a hero or an absolute villain. So that's why I think goalkeepers kind of kind of cling together, and and as I say, we we call it the the goalkeepers union because we we we know how how unforgiving it it can be at

Roots, School, And Early Football

SPEAKER_02 54:08

times. Yeah. And you were born in England, yes? I was born in England. So my my dad, um so long story. My my my dad was my dad was in England, um, he was a teacher, um, wrongfully arrested, him and his good friend of his Desmond Alam, wrongfully arrested uh for auto theft, um, sued the police for for uh racial discrimination. Um took his share of of the settlement, enrolled in law school, uh, and then came back to Trinidad for his first holiday in four years. Uh, and in in that six weeks, met and proposed to my mother. So I always joke that you know I have two racist police officers to thank for my being here.

Corie 54:50

No understand your involvement in this racism movement. I get it. I get it.

SPEAKER_02 54:53

So, you know, um, but my dad enrolled in law school and and um so my married my mom as as I mentioned, and my mom came up to England where he finished law school. Uh myself and my my well, I've got two two brothers. I'm the oldest of three, the second boy, Cuna. Uh we were both born in England. Once my father graduated law school, him and my mother moved back, moved back to Trinidad. And then our youngest brother was born here. So I was born in England, left when I was two years old, have absolutely no recollection of my time in England. Um, you know, as I say, we were there while my dad finished law school. So early days of football is all here. Well, when we I have photos of my father holding him up on a, you know, holding him up as a as a baby kicking a ball. He started in some park, in some park in London somewhere. So I have so I have the you know, we I have those photos, but my first meaningful involvement in in football um has always been here.

Corie 55:49

What school you want to stuff? Say Fatima, just for you.

SPEAKER_02 55:52

No, no, no, there's only one school really to go to. Yeah.

Corie 55:55

We had to do about St. Mary's like a cult once I got me.

SPEAKER_02 55:59

Notice how I mean city school, but I glad you know. When I say it only had one school to go to, you know exactly what school I talking about. We can't do that. I didn't even say nothing. I didn't say nothing. I didn't say nothing.

Corie 56:16

What primary school and then early days? What is primary school and primary school?

SPEAKER_02 56:21

I went to uh Brynmore primary in Pitty Valley. Right, good. So yeah, that's that was um that was my my primary school.

Corie 56:26

Playing from as young as then as a little as well. I was playing, yeah. I was playing, I was playing. I've always played.

SPEAKER_02 56:30

So between football and cricket, I've always played my father as a member of Harvard Cricket, Harvard's Cricket Club. So I played cricket with Harvard, played cricket with Lara at Harvard before he he moved over to Queen's Park. Uh I've always played football. I couldn't even tell you where I said, I'm sure I used to play at Harvard and a number of other places. Um actually played in a in an under 14. So I first represented Trinidad at under-12 level. Um actually played under 14 with um Dwight, Russell, and Brian. Um so that kind of speaks to Lara's own achievement. And and and more to the point, also how far I've come with with um Russell and Dwight. You know, we we played that under 12 national team. I was 10 years old, Dwight was eight. Oh and then roll that forward to 2006, where you know, all three of us playing, playing the work up together. It was um special.

Corie 57:31

Yeah, that'll be surreal. At that time, you're playing keeper, you're playing outfield season.

SPEAKER_02 57:35

Yeah, so I I actually when I when I go up, I go up for East Zone for some reason, even though I'm from Digga Martin, but I haven't built to be exact. Um my father took me to up for East Zone and the coach, Barney Smith, um Basil. Um Basil Smith, everybody's calling Barney. He just takes one look at me as like, use the tallest, you use the goal. Because I like you, Corey. I was a striker up until I had never played in goal before that. Never played in goal before that. And um, you know, so I go for east zone trials, and he was just like, all right, use the tallest, use the goalie. I like that. And um, and yeah, and the rest, as this is history, it it it I really had never played in goal before then. And um, and that obviously just kind of became my identity. So you start enjoying it first, or um, I don't know if I ever really enjoyed it. I'll be honest with you. I you know, if I may be so so boastful, I I realized I was good at it. Right. But I didn't know if I really ever thoroughly enjoyed it because again, you you recognize so I played with Craig Forrest at Canadian International, and I thought he summed it up well. And he's like, when you're an outfield player and you're having a great game, you want that game to last forever. When you're a goalkeeper and you and you want that and you having a great game, you want the game to done now. Because you know mistake, you know. You could make six world-class sales and one mistake, and that is all everybody talking about. When you're having a great game as a keeper, you want the game done now. I I thought that that summed it up. So, which is why I say I'm I'm not sure if I ever truly enjoyed it.

Corie 59:10

Yeah, it makes perfect sense. It made perfect sense. So I know you didn't get into fatigue, man, but you went on to do engineering after

Engineering, NASA, And Taking A Shot

Corie 59:15

some minutes.

SPEAKER_02 59:15

Yeah, yeah. I went I went to uh to Howard University, I was good at maths. Um, so engineering seemed like like the um the right was enjoying that yet, like in general.

Corie 59:26

Well, man enjoyed it. Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_02 59:32

I guess. Again. You want a career there? But it it fit, you know, it it fits. You know, I I mean, and I think that's part of the the the uh well, while it's the truth, it's a difficulty of you know doing doing university at that age. What do you really want to do alive? It's tough. And I have these conversations with my kids now who are going to college. And you know, like my son's my son's following in in my wife's in my footsteps and going off to Howard in the fall. He's 18. You know, how do you know what you want to do for the rest of your life at that at that stage? You know, um, so I it was no different for me. You know, it's like all right, I got at math. Tell me if I do this, I could get a good job after. Any doctor lawyer? Yeah, it makes sense, you know. Um I know I know doctor and lawyer was too hard. I too much reading. I didn't like to read so much, but I could do math, so let me go engineering. And I I loved cars. My dream job was to design cars. So it's like a mechanical engineering is the perfect first step towards that. I still let me just say, I still love cars. So if one day see me driving a red sports car, I don't see it's not a midlife crisis. It's an all-my life crisis.

Corie 1:00:46

I can design it, that's what you have to say. That's a mental.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:49

I'm I'm still madly in love. My wife could tell you we be walking down the street and I go to stop to watch a car. Yeah. Um, yeah, so it's a it's an all-my life crisis. If you if you see me. Yeah, they call it midlife. Yeah, it ain't midlife, it's an all-my life crisis. If you see me, if you see me driving in a in a red convertible all of a sudden.

Corie 1:01:06

Oh, wait here, I wait, oh wait, yeah. I read somebody had into Nassau, so it's that bright.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:11

Yeah. Um well, I ain't know, I didn't know if I was that bright. Um, so it's it's all good. Let me just put it that way. It's so good. I did. So my junior year, my junior year, I um actually I had a friend. Uh I was I was at college with a nerd trainer, and I could made in. Um, we were doing a project together, and he applied to NASA. And he got a placement um in in one of the divisions in Maryland. And I was just I was looking for a job that summer. And he encouraged me to apply, and they're like, ah, they accepted me as well in this program that they had. I was placed at uh NASA headquarters, which is downtown DC. So spend the summer there. Um, good fun. I I I mean, listen there. Pun very intended, everything went over my head. That's my favorite, I have a favorite dad, dad joke for the last 30 years. But uh, but I I I the the biggest takeaway I got from that was seeing how young the engineers. So you have the brightest minds, brightest engineering minds in in the world, not just the US, in the world, all right there in one office, seeing them, seeing how young they were and see them working on the most difficult problems because this is the proverbial rocket science. Um, and and I I thought that was was eye-opening, seeing how they collaborate, how they work through problems, how they test things and fail and come back again. Um that that was was an experience. I I couldn't contribute. I again because it keeps saying they are not we, like, no, no, and listen, I I I am sitting in in rooms with the brightest engineering minds in the world. Gotcha. But they they so I I at the time they were building space station freedom, and the responsibility of DC office was you know, all the different NASA offices and the collaborations with you know, European Space Agency or whoever were building specific parts of Space Station Freedom. And the DC office was putting all those parts together. So you really had the brightest minds working on some of the world's most complicated problems. Um, and it was just it was just incredible to be a part of, to be in that room. I I there's also something that I I will always advocate for, just being in rooms with these bright people, seeing how they do things. Um, that that has an experience, whether you could, whether you can contribute or not, is an invaluable experience.

Corie 1:03:34

Yeah, so then you're absorbing it, you're not seeing a career there even in the moment.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:38

Well, I'm I'm not necessarily seeing a career, career there. You know, again, I'm a I'm a junior at college, I'm 20 years old or whatever it was at the time, you know, whether I'm seeing a career there or not, I'm I'm just seeing how how these incredibly intelligent people do things. Yeah, it's just learning.

Corie 1:03:54

Yeah. So you had a point where you had to decide on nine to five kind of work versus football.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:59

Yeah, so what I um actually that that summer, so my mentor, my mentor at NASA was a German by the name of Greg Sweetek. Um and I remember having a conversation with him. So I was getting offers to to do a master's in engineering on scholarship. Um and I was getting ready to do that. And and um so I remember speaking to him, I was like, man, I'd love to be able to play football. Um but this engineering thing is, you know, it's like the boat in the hand, you know? And and he was like, You're you give football a shot. One shot. He's like, if you don't make it, you could always come back to engineering, but you don't want to be in engineering, wonder what if. So I was like, okay, I'll give it, I'll give it this one shot. And then, you know, the the stars really aligned for me in that. So I got called up for what was called the senior bowl. So um I'm I'm aging myself here. This is pre-MLS. There was no MLS at the time, but they had a uh a professional indoor team. Um I got called up for the for the senior bowl, which is you know for graduating seniors out of college to go and play an indoor game. As it happens, the indoor game that year was in Baltimore, which is just north of Water, DC. I could not have gone everywhere anywhere else. I was a student, I didn't have money to go anywhere else, but I could jump on a bus and in 45 minutes an hour I'll be in Baltimore. So I went. Um, I played there, I played really well in that. I actually got drafted by the Baltimore Blast, an indoor team. Um and as luck would have it, they were touring England that summer. They were playing two games against Aston Villa. Dwight had just joined Aston Villa. So this was this was the summer of '92. Dwight had just joined Aston Villa a year or two earlier. Um, played two indoor games. I get I got married match definitely in one. I might have gotten it in both. I can't remember. And um, and Reading offered me a trial. Um, as it happens, I I remember one day walking around um in in Birmingham, um, looking in in windows for job postings, and I remember. Number scene one for um a mechanical engineer uh that that's uh with uh uh to to work on on an actuator, which as it happens, um I mentioned Kurt Medina uh earlier and another Jared Prussia, um another Trinidad, and we worked on on an actuator for for our senior project. Um starting salary 20,000. So I was like, I that is that I know it is, right? Let me go, I could do if I do in football, 20,000 a year, that is that is what I'm looking for. Um so anyway, I saw I played well in the two games. Reading offered me a trial. Um, so I I came back up for that trial with Reading, and then after after two months of uh kind of being on trial and not and not knowing, um, Reading offered me my first pro contract. And and as uh as as fortune would have it, they offered me 20,000 a year.

Corie 1:06:54

So you were just comparing, we're gonna make an engineering.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:56

Well they just I was just saying right this thing's right. So I I I again I had no idea. If if I did if football didn't work out, I probably would have just gone back to the States and then my masters. But I happened to see this and I was like, okay, well, 20,000 is is my just by chance, you know, and and I kind of you know right, you think these things are gonna happen, you know, they're gonna come come true. And then it happened, and and and reading was like, well, we could offer we could offer 400 pounds a week, you know, 20,000 a year. I was like, all right, that's I'll I'll take it. Um Reading was in championship at the time, though. Nah, Reading were

England Struggles And The Breakthrough

SPEAKER_02 1:07:28

in, well, was then the second division, what is now League One in today's money. Okay. Um so I I I I joined and I'm not gonna lie, I struggled. I I really, I really my first season, I really struggled. And I remember coming home that that fall in summer um uh '93. Um 93. I actually proposed to my wife. But I uh uh uh well my then girlfriend. Um and I remember telling my dad, like I I don't want to go back.

Corie 1:07:56

So Leno, what do you mean? It was tough, you know.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:59

Um weather was awful. Culturally, I just I just didn't settle, you know. My my girlfriend was away, you know, people, all my friends and loved ones were away, and I just felt it was just tough settling it. It really was. And I'm in this cool, rainy place, I'm in the middle of nowhere, I'm um, there's no other Trinidads around. I mean, I could get to London fairly, fairly easily in 45 minutes, an hour. But it was just tough, and I I hated it. And I was ready to pack in. And I also struggled a lot with injuries and just settling in, you know. It's a big, it's a big jump from you know being a college goalkeeper to all of a sudden being a pro, even even at well, League One by today's level. And and I remember telling my dad, and and my dad's like, listen, you sign a two-year contract, see how the two years. If you if at the end of that second year you still feel the same way, well then figure out what the next steps are. You can go back to the states and look at doing your masters, come back home, figure, figure things out. So I was like, okay, I'll go back up, give it what I I fully intended to give it one more year, and and that would be it. Um, probably that would be it. I'll go back up for for that summer. Um, I'll go back up for the preseason in '93. As I say, I just proposed to my to my my then girlfriend, my my now, my now wife of of soon to be 31 years. And I walk into the manager's office, Mark Magee. He's there with his assistant Colin Lee. And they're like, uh, we just told his starting goalkeeper, Steve Francis. We we didn't have no money to buy anybody else. So so use it. So use it so you're getting a chance. So it was it was it was that blunt. Yeah, like, yeah, we we broke, so boy, we got all of us. Use all we got. And uh and and I played every game that season. Right. I played every single game that season, you know, just played my way through the the bad spells and the disappointment and and everything else. We got promoted from from League One into uh well, then the first division, what is what is now the championship. Um we then go into the championship. So I tell the story. So I proposed in in 93, wife and I set a date for for June 95, June, June 10th, 1995. So it started the season, we're trying to decide on a date, you know, and I was like, all right, my wife's birthday is June 8th, I'll do it a couple days later, you know, looking at the Saturday or whatever it is. And she's like, well, what myth, you know, reading go far, you know. I like we going far, we try to try to avoid relegation. We ain't going far. Yeah, it's like season gonna be done here. Listen, if we if we stay up, we're taking that. Yeah. Um, and as it happens, so again, I'll play every single game that that that now my third season for for for Reading. Um, we actually finished second in what is in uh what is now the championship. But that year they were reducing the numbers in the Premier League. So four teams got relegated from the Premier League, and only two went up. So one went up automatically, the winner of the of the league, it was Middlesbrough, coached by Brian Robson. Reading finished second, and we get to the playoff final and we lose. Um, so we go all that way, but then why why why that is kind of significant around around our marriage is there's there was some law. I don't know if it's still here, you had to be in the you had to be in the country two weeks before you get married, otherwise, you need a president's license or some kind of thing. But now, because we go into the final, same thing, my wife tell me about it. Same thing my wife was asking about it's like what before then so now we had to come home and it's a mad scramble to go in the red house and fill out applications and why we wouldn't know we're getting and getting married next week. So I'm yeah, holy papa palama wrong wrong, even that boy. I'm holy papal. So yeah, so that was um, so that's so there was that. So anyway, we we managed to pull it off. You know, we managed to pull it off. I'm here, and again, this is pre-cell phone day, so my agent calling my my parents' house phone because Newcastle. I joined I joined Newcastle that summer. I joined Newcastle summer 95. So my wife and I got married in in June. Um by by July, early August, I I I was a Newcastle player.

Corie 1:12:14

Yeah, and huge club, right? So it's the it's feel the pressure and things. Is it that difference? Like when it goes, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:19

No, it's it's um it's it's a big difference. It's a it's a big difference in terms of in terms of performance, um, in terms of the pressure and in terms of consistency.

Corie 1:12:28

And media coverage and all that too.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:31

Yeah, yeah, yeah, you're in the public eye in a way that um you you know even the championship, you just cannot imagine. It it it everything about it is is is turned up, you know, a hundred times.

Corie 1:12:43

Everything. Was it preparation? Like you mentally you zone out when the game starts.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:48

Well you kind of yeah, you you you you try to just take these things as as they are, you know. Um it's a game of football, same as playing, you know, last week, 90 minutes long against, you know, uh 10 teammates against 11, and you you try to put it in into that perspective, you know. Um but then you know, these are the things you dream of, playing at this level against these kinds of players, um, and being judged uh at that level. So you you try to find that that that balance around around you know playing at that level and finding that level of performance. But yeah, especially now looking back, it it's so it's so much it's it's so much more difficult in every single regard from everything else that I experienced before.

Corie 1:13:28

Yeah, and I was looking at this uh video going around the other day talking about the top three Trinidadians in the Premier League in terms of appearances. I think they said it was York, J-Loyd, Samuel, and yourself. But back then, you have any idea that you're gonna No.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:41

You're just living as we were discussing before, you're just living the experience. I I just played football. Yeah, and not focused on I'm not focused on that I'm Trinidadian. Um when I was when I was when when I was playing through those early years, there were only there were 92 league clubs. There were only two black goalkeepers in in all 92 clubs, professional clubs, myself and David James. Right. I'm not doing those things, I ain't you know, mean really on my mind at all. You know, you just I just played, you know, this this is what I wanted to do. So let me do it. So you just kind of do those things without kind of um recognizing I guess what what it means.

Corie 1:14:26

Right, yeah. So you did um you started Reading when Newcastle West Ham. West Ham.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:30

Yeah, then yeah, so I left left um so finish finished second twice with with Newcastle in in three years. We finished second 95-96, we finished second 96-97, um, 97-98. I can't remember where we finished. We got to the FA Cup final in 98. Um, left after that. I didn't play. Shea Shea played, she gave him play in the in that 98 um FA Cup final. Left. Um went to West Ham 98-99. First season, first season at West Ham, I proudly boast. We finished fifth. That's still West Ham's highest ever Premier League finish. I got played the season for West Ham that year, had a really good season that year. And it was was kind of doing the same the following year, and then and then broke my leg. Um and that kind of threw a lot of things off. Um, yeah, so then after never really hit those heights again with with with West Ham, had to take a step down, uh, went to Portsmouth. Um I went to Portsmouth in 2002, when the joint joined Portsmouth in 2002. Um we we win the the the championship. As it happens, West Ham get relegated. So Portsmouth and West Ham swap places are just like West Ham and you know, and that was a good West Ham team. That's a West Ham. I mean David Taylor's in goal, Frank Lampard, Rio Ferdinand, Joe Cole. Um that's Paul Decay.

Corie 1:15:59

What men went on to do on that team too. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:01

So they they got relegated as as Portsmouth got got got promoted. Um stayed up with them, did three seasons with Portsmouth, stayed in the Premier League, uh, then did one more season at at West Ham, which culminated in in the 2006 FA Cup final, which turned out to be my last game in English football. Right, that was the game. Yeah, from me from that FA Cup final onto the World Cup uh and then a year in MLS before before packing in.

Corie 1:16:28

In Dallas? Dallas. Yeah. So when you were when you were early stages and you were coming home to say for Trinidad and stuff, you're playing for Trinidad

Choosing Trinidad And Tobago Over England

Corie 1:16:34

as well as.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:34

I I came home for Trinidad in my first first meaningful game was was in 1999. So I as uh back when I was in college, I actually got called into a shell shell Caribbean Cup team. Um so I guess it should have been 1990. Actually, there was rumors and in uh or there was suggestion in that during that tournament that I'd make my debut later in the group stage, but then the coup happened. Of course. The coup happened. I remember we were in the stadium getting ready, we're playing the second game of a double header, watching the first game, and then you hear the explosions go off in in Port of Spain. So um so I didn't get um so I didn't make my debut then. So then I I go off and and you know, you know, things kind of go quiet. I I I go off and and uh back to college. So as I mentioned, 92, I go I go up to England. Um then and then Jack One and I had this had this fallen out uh over Jack wanted to Jack wanted to host a game November 19th, 1994. Um almost as a as a five five-year commemoration, which still still makes zero sense to me. Who com commemorates a game we lost? You know, so we wanted to have this game um uh around around that, um, which made no sense to me. Again, because it was November 19th and the timing of it, it was outside of the international window. Um, it was outside the international window, so I would have to be leaving my club. I was the only I was the only goalkeeper on Reading's books at at the time. I was playing well. I didn't want to be leaving. I didn't want to just be leaving the middle east. So we had this falling out, and you know, FIFA was threatening to ban me. And for me to get out of that ban, I had to say, listen, I was born in England, I have a British passport, so I I'm not coming. That's that's that is how I was able to stay with Reading and just continue to play uninterrupted. And as a result, I was like, I ain't I'm not playing for Trinidad while Jack is still still around.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:38

I I really wasn't.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:40

Um, but then in 1999, uh Bertel Sinclair, well, Bert and Sinclair had been the coach of probably from about 98. Um, Bertel called as like Shaka White to come back. Now, Bertel is the one who would give me my debut at under 12 level, as we just discussed earlier, and I still refer to Bertel as my father in football. Um, Bertel becoming national team coach, and Bertel's like Shaka White to come back. And I was like, Bertel, for you I will. I wouldn't have done it for anybody else. I wouldn't have done it for anybody else. But Bertel and um Richard Braffitt, uh the manager, may he rest in peace. They called and I came back. And so I came back. My first game for Trinidad was in the stadium against Jamaica. We won 2-0. Oh, nice. Um, and and I just I continued from there.

Corie 1:19:20

Gotcha, gotcha. And I know you were across as well because that British passport, you had the option to play for England.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:25

I could have. I I I at that that same summer. Um, Kevin Keegan was my former manager at Newcastle, was now the manager of the England national team. He had had, as they always do, they call beforehand to say you're being named in the squad. He called to say I was being named in the squad for that summer that we would have been playing, so that would have been 99, so that they'd be playing Euro qualifiers that summer. And I said, nah, I was like, I'm not. Even though I'd played for Trinidad, but it was a friendly, so I was still eligible to play for England. Um, but Keegan called and I told Keegan, nah, I was like, listen, I'm I'm I'm playing for Trinidad. I listen, I I I grew up dreaming of playing for Trinity Baby. God's honest truth. So then once it came down to it, there was only one decision for me. Now, there's no no question, it would have been better for me professionally financially to play for England. But I'd I grew up only dreaming of one thing. Yeah, playing for Triante Babu. I I could still remember going to New Hall to see John Granville playing goal and be absolutely mesmerized. Um, and and that's what I wanted. So when decision came right down to it, um Trina was writing for me. Um so I didn't I didn't second guess that and uh I tore Kidding as much.

Corie 1:20:40

Yeah, no. So in 2005, for instance, Burton was there again. Uh he was the head coach of the team at the time. I watched them same things you say about fans, right? I watch the stadium empty. We hex. So it's not even like we know where we're struggling to get to. And in the beginning of the hex, people might remember the stadium was emptying. Yeah. And I remember one of the games we went to. I want to say it's Guatemala. Somebody we lose five, once we're gonna be able to do that.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:00

Yeah, that that easily was my worst performance in a national team shirt. I was going through a lot. I was going to so in in 2005, I was having a lot of issues with Portsmouth. And um, you know, the old saying is you stay saying something long enough, you you get to understand the ugly side of it. And the the ugly side of uh the politics around football just kind of it, you know, I just felt listen, I had given this game so much, you know, had not done anybody duty in this game at all in my life. And and I felt um there were different things which I won't get into that. I I I felt I I I was being treated really poorly. I fell out of love with the game. I and I really struggled. And but one thing a lot of times when things have been hard, it's been great to come back home. Whether it's come back home on holiday, still. I I still when when things are toughest for me, I still run straight back home. Um exactly to recentle. And so coming back to Trinidad was just such a welcome experience for me for so many reasons. So even though I was going through and I was full I was I was out of love with the game, I would come back home. And um, and yeah, and I and and I think it it cultived um that that final that that game against Guatemala easily was was as low as I've been as a as a professional footballer. Yeah, and and um and and that that result was uh was um symptomatic of that. And as it turned out, as it turned out, so I think Bertha was sacked right after that. Yeah, he came home. I seemed like I left to see Bertha's playing a boony stadium.

Corie 1:22:37

I never thought you'd see that.

SPEAKER_02 1:22:38

I and but he left me out, so he left me out to the team after that. Clayton came in, and then later Calvin Jack, I think it I think it might have been Leo Bernaca who gave Calvin Jack, who brought Calvin Jack in as his number one. But yeah, that was my that was my my last game. And in so many ways, so the last game of of the Hex was Mexico, which we had to win at home. Um we go one-nil down um just before halftime. Just before halftime, um Mexico had already qualified. We go one down, we needed to win to finish in the playoff spot. Calvin gets hurt in in trying to keep out the the Mexico goal just before halftime. So I I stay out. I stay out at I'd stay out at on the pitch at halftime to warm up. And in so many ways I was thankful. As I because I whatever happened to this game, I don't want that Guatemala game to be my last for Trante Bego. Because I I knew I'm coming to the end of my time, right? We do we don't qualify for 2006, I'm not playing for Tranto Bayo again, you know. Um 2005, it's 2005, I'm 36 years old, 36 years old. I'm gonna be 37 in February soon after, so I'm crucial to the 37. Um, and I was just like, whatever happened, thank God I get this opportunity because I didn't want that Guatemala game to be my last in national team colours. Come out, play. Um as it happens, I don't concede, but more importantly, thankfully, Stone scores two up the other end, and and we win 2-1 and we we get into the playoffs. So at least I could say, right, Guatemala you raised right, yeah. That's not my last game. That's not my last game, right? You know, so stin scores, right? We go into the playoffs again. Calvin is is is um Calvin is Leo Bernaka's number one choice, and rightfully so. Uh I would always talk about I think the best save I ever witnessed in my own two eyes is Kelvin's save in Bahrain later on. Deflection of Ian Cox. Um, the quality of the save, the importance of it, the stage of it, is it's easily the best save I've I've ever seen with my own two eyes. And then we go on to the Workup, and then and then um at the Woody World Cup, you have the the Sweden and the England games. So now Guatemala is even further in the way. Yeah, yeah, go on. Thank God. Thank

World Cup Warm-Up To Fairy Tale]

SPEAKER_02 1:25:00

God.

Corie 1:25:00

But before we go to Sweden, like a lot of the photos, when you see yourself, your class meeting a few iconic photos there when they see me line. I I bowled my eyes out. That's what Jack said.

SPEAKER_02 1:25:09

Jack said every one of them cry like babies. I balled my eyes out in um in Bahrain. So um Chris Birchall had got had got hurt his ankle, and then um when when the final whistle went, the Bahrain fans started to rip up the stance, literally. And they were throwing it at the Trinidad fans, throwing it at us, but we in this little, you know, the little tunnel. So all of hunkering down and waiting for uh breaking the projectiles. I had Butcher in my back. I'm gonna run on the pitch to celebrate. And I run, I run straight into to Dwight and Russell. And as I say, we played, we played under under 12 together. We play as 10-year-olds together. And now here we are, you know, talking about taking trying to be with our first ever workout. And I just broke down. I I just broke down just in in recognition of that. It was a special time. As a fan, I guess I I I I am I'm always a fan first.

Corie 1:26:04

Yeah, well, we were crying here with you. I mean, yeah. We mash up tongues, you know, just like no joke. But you're going to that first game now, and Jack, everybody knows Jack is the first keeper. What went on? He was just injured on Nicole, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:26:16

Yeah, so he had gotten injured in in one of the one of the warm-up games. Um, and it was always touch and go as to whether he whether he would. No, I I figured he'd play. I I certainly figured he'd start the game. And in in many respects, certainly in terms of for me and my own preparation, that was great. Because I I had a good night's sleep. I wasn't worried about nothing. I sleep, I get up in the morning, I had one big breakfast. I uh no pressure, no pressure, and no pressure. I remember seeing my wife and my mom, and all my kids were had four at the time, came to Germany. And I just tell my mom, I was like, listen, I I gonna have a real good seat for this game. I'm a fan. I am a fan first, right? So I go and have a real good seat for this game, and I go and enjoy this game for what it is. You know, I we go out and you pitch the warm-up, I kick in shots at Clayton. Clayton kicking shots at me, you know, Calvin out there warming up with um Michael Maurice, bro. And and I am just I am just like, man, trying to be a player in a world cup. Imagine that. I go on and let me I let me enjoy, let me enjoy this, you know. And then all of a sudden, uh, you know, I'm I'm off to the side. Calvin walks by and he says, um, and and and he mumbles something. And I thought he said I can't make it, but I wasn't sure. So I just stop and I I look at him and he walk in towards Benaka. And I just watch Bernacka with a stare, like, you better put me in here. Like you better, if you don't call me here, me and you fighting right here on this pitch here, right here in Dortmund. And uh he called me over. He's like, You ready? I was like, Yeah. He's like, Alright, you ready? And um, so I had 10 minutes to warm up. Um I kind of decided I I You know, my uh bro kick a couple of shots at me and I was like, I'm I seen it like I seen it like a like like a beach ball. I seen I seen it like a beach ball, I was feeling good. Um he's like, you want to do some crosses? I was like, nah, I'll figure it out during the game. I'll tell that story for for for one reason, you know. Um so I I I always like to so normally if I were going in for if I were playing a game, I would go out a little bit earlier than everybody else, warm up. But then I'd like to go into the dressing room before everybody else and just sit down for five minutes before everybody else piling in and there's a set of noise and shouting. I just wanted that five minutes of quiet to myself. So I went in before everybody else still, even though you know back, just catch about six balls. I was like, right, I seen it big, let me go. Went and sit down and be it was quiet, you know. And then I made my mind up that first cross had come over, I'd come in for it. I didn't care where you go, I'd come in for the cross. And they got a corner and they put it far post. Henry Glassman was coming around her mind, she'd just about get a fingertip to it and tip it away, you know. And um, I was like, all right, it's flying a little bit further than I think. So I'll adjust. I'll tell that story because I saw the sign after the game, and a number of reporters like, man, that was a nervy start. I was like, no, no, no, it wasn't. I was like, I I knew that was a risk of that happening. I knew there was a risk of that happening. I was like, right, there's what happened flying a little bit further than I thought. Okay, good. I adjust now, and then the rest, the rest of the game just kind of just played out as it did.

Corie 1:29:28

Yeah, kind of carry on your back a little bit too, because I see some saves there. I mean, all of them iconic, plus photos, videos, people was not like.

SPEAKER_02 1:29:40

Nah, no, no, still, still don't. Seriously.

Corie 1:29:43

Busy after, we must watch it.

SPEAKER_02 1:29:44

Nah, nah, nah, nah. That's my fairy tale. That's that's that will forever be. I will forever be my fairy tale. And I feel if I watch that game over, say in the innocentity, um, it will become real. I I I like it being my fairy tale.

Corie 1:30:01

I got you, I got you,

ESPN Broadcasting By Accident

Corie 1:30:02

I got you. Are you talking about broadcaster, no? Sure. How are you getting to that? Where does that just fall into my lap?

SPEAKER_02 1:30:08

That just falls into my lap. Uh-huh. So um uh so I finished I finished up at at at Dallas in 2007. I finished before the NDC. I had a bad back and I was strong with injuries, and they were going through the playoffs, and they wanted to get somebody in who could, you know, at least help out. Um, I I really was was struggling to play more than three or four days, train three or four days at a time before breaking down again, you know. So I was like, all right, no problem. I I've done, you know, get somebody in. And so this would have been October. We were planning to move, my wife and I were planning to move the family back home after. Um, where you said, all right, kids in school, we could let them see on Christmas, and we will move home in a new year. So like, alright. So we stayed in the area for for a few months. Then all of a sudden, um, the head of communications of Dallas calls me. I was like, oh, ESPN producers on is on the phone. Um, wants to get your number. I was like, all right, yeah, pass it on. Um and he called, guy named Steve Pelesi, who's still my boss to this day. Um, just that's what I was doing. Nothing. Um, if I wanted to come up and do a couple of shows. I'm like, all right, I have nothing else to do. So they flew me up to Connecticut, do a couple of shows, you know, again, thinking nothing of it. Um, and then they called me back a couple of weeks later and said, um, yeah, we want to fear a full-time spot.

Corie 1:31:30

Okay, so wait, how we know you could do it. So you just hear you speak and he heard me speak.

SPEAKER_02 1:31:34

Okay, okay. He heard me, he said he seen me do interviews and heard me speak and felt that I I would be good. I had started doing interviews here. I'd interviewed at UTT about coming back home and doing you know, doing stuff back home. Um, and then as I say, this ESPN thing just just literally just just fell in my lap. Um one of the most valuable lessons I think I I I got very early on is from Tommy Smith, Tommy Smith, away. He just said, listen, you just you just be who you are and and speak to speak to your own experiences. And and I think that was valuable because I'm I've I've tried to be I've tried to be that little kid from from Trinidad or that footballer from Trinidad Um who's grown up in a small country that many people kind of ignore as as as as as you know in terms of the broader picture of the game. You know, so much of the game is focused around Europe and what they do and what they have to offer and and those perspectives. Um and and not enough um validity is given to us and and the role that small countries play in this this big old game of ours. And and that's who I've tried to be. I've I've tried to be, I've tried to I've tried to represent my journey from a small country that nobody knows about or nobody pays much attention to. Um who's been able to achieve the things that I have. And what year was that you started? I started so my first so I I did those two shows for ESPN in 2007. My first official day for ESPN was January 1st, 2008.

Corie 1:33:07

Yeah, maybe it's my own insecurities because like when you watch media, especially in football, it's very, very British. The commentary, the coverage, everything is British, and then the US trying to make their own way into it through coverage as well as MLS, I suppose, by that time. And um, in a sense, you hear some of the accents out there, but it's American Americans, you know, the Olympic coverage thing we used to do, you know. Any hesitation usually because you sang like us all the time.

SPEAKER_02 1:33:32

Yeah, no, I I I had no hesitation. Thanks for saying that so because I mean I admit, I admit my accent is very confused. Yeah, it's very confused. I've lived all over the place. But part of that too is is I'm a mumbler. I'm I'm I'm a mumbler. Um and my mom always used to tell me that. So in an e so talking to other trained audience, I can I can speak freely. I can mumble. They all understand. But anybody who ain't born and grew up here, yeah. I can't talk at my I can't talk in my name. I can't talk naturally because again, I talk quickly, I mumble a lot. So it gets lost really, really, really easily. So as a result, I have to slow down. I have to consciously slow down my my my cadence, I have to enunciate, um, and then I've lived so many different countries, all those accents coming together is be a big mishmash of me and what going on in there.

Corie 1:34:31

But you guys can't hide it when you should talk start.

SPEAKER_02 1:34:32

Like everybody is come out, like so I I remember um so played for West Ham, um real food and always you always say, you know when Shaka vex when you can't understand. He's like if Shaka shout at you and you can't understand, you do something real shopping. You do something real shopping. So that kind of sums up again. That kind of sums up.

Corie 1:34:53

Yeah, just randomly, right? But going back to the empty days of the stadium, it's a treat to be the stadium and an empty shaka and slow. So it's something you enjoyed from the beginning when you start to broadcast it. It's it's it's about personalities, right?

SPEAKER_02 1:35:09

And and and and that's the thing. We we have a good team and get on well with everybody else. Um, even when we argue or we criticize, we know it's not personal, and that's something that a lot of people coming into our show have to kind of grow into. Right. That we'll get very animated and it will seem very with each other. And then from the time we're done, we're done. Nobody talking about it. We don't see my golf game, I play one out of pongs last week. No, it's nothing, nothing to do. Yeah, nothing anybody says is is is personal. It's just we're making TV. Gotcha, gotcha, gotcha. And when did ESPN Caribbean come about? So that started in in 2009. Um ESPN has always had a Caribbean, uh, uh Caribbean presence. Um, and then in 2009, um, they decided to to have a bigger push in terms of creating more local content. Um, they brought in a a GM uh Bernard Stewart who'd been out in Asia and launched the Asian business um to come and come and take that on. And just as we were getting that going in a meaningful way, um, two or three years, the so now you had the economic collapse in in 2008, it really started to take hold of ESPN and and more to the point, Disney. Um Disney is is ESPN's parent company, it started to take hold of Disney closer to 2010-2011. Um because people weren't going to the parks. And and so Disney from a business started to take a significant hit. So there was significant cost cutting around all the companies. Disney owns uh not just Disney and Sparks, ESPN also owns ABC. So there was significant cost cutting, and as a result, ESPN Caribbean and that kind of push um was cut or certainly diminished significantly.

Corie 1:36:56

Yeah, and but you stay with it over the years definitely showing.

SPEAKER_02 1:36:58

I I haven't I haven't done much with them for a far. They still have still have you know people who task with making sure that ESPN has a presence here and and negotiating deals, etc. But I I haven't been been a part of it.

Corie 1:37:10

What was your role when they were rolling at all?

SPEAKER_02 1:37:12

Um kind of the face of it. Kind of the face of it, you know, and then trying to to to build or make those those introductions and those relationships for us to acquire rights and and build out more and more more local products, you know, just little things like um we covered the the Tobago Marathon, you know, stuff stuff like that, which was more, you know, very local in terms of in terms of what we what we were doing, what we were broadcasting.

Racism, Red Card, And Passing On

Corie 1:37:38

Understood, understood. Now, so just up to recently, and it reminds me of your your your career in broadcasting. When I look at Michael Holden as a player who left the game, went on to broadcasting at the highest levels. Yeah. And uh I always remember I was looking at your Instagram yesterday and seeing you being recognized for your stance on racism and involvement in that. And you would remember the moments where Michael Holden made it a point just just before he stopped to speak to some of that.

SPEAKER_02 1:37:59

Yeah, um, I I again this would have been um 2020 or just after with the the George Floyd uh George Floyd murder and the rising Black Lives Matter movement. Um and Michael Holding spoke so poignantly about it. I I I think I'm right in saying there was like a rain delay, so they had to fill time, and given everything that was going on, they they asked Michael about it, and he you know impromptu um spoke about why the moment mattered uh to him, even his experiences, and and it was it was incredibly powerful. Um he went on to write a book from it, um Why We Kneel, How We Rise, which I proudly say I I have a copy of that Michael signed, Michael signed to me. Um and it it it I think it it resonated in a in a way that um and impacted in a way that I'm not even sure Michael Michael anticipated because it it was it was it was impromptu, it was powerful, he is such an incredible orator. Um and and it it really did it really did have have an incredible impact on on the world that we live in and and people's perceptions. Um I've been involved in in this space myself uh for you know th this year I'll be celebrating 30 years of Shuri Semely Red Card, which I'm I'm uh co-founder of. Um and it it speaks to again uh a journey and even that has been has been a learning experience for me. You know, I I I in in that right around when when Michael made a statement, I I was struggling with the moment. I felt we started Sherry Sandy Red Card as as a promise to deliver a a better world to my kids, a more uh uh uh equitable world to my kids, and and and seeing what was happening in 2020, um, I felt like I failed my kids. And it was it was it was tough. I it was tough, Corey. I feel personally, yeah. I I really struggled, and and it's probably one of the only times I'd really felt that I was struggling with depression at the moment. Um I remember doing a Zoom call, and and one of our senior vice presidents, uh Leroy Rossinia, Liam, Liam's father, he's he's one of our senior vice presidents, um, said Shaki has seen us wrong. This this is a really, you know, this is not your your race to finish. You have to run your leg. I would hand off the batter to the younger generation. And I found that it lifted me out of a funk, and it I found that incredibly motivating. And that's been my focus now. My focus now is how can I how can I best equip the next generation with my own experiences. I'm I'm I'm never gonna live in that world where that's free of racism, that's equal. Um but I'm I'm I'm gonna hand off the battle to the next generation in the hope that that they finish that race. If not, they run the best leg that they can and hand off the battle as well.

Corie 1:40:48

So that's where Musa focuses on.

SPEAKER_02 1:40:50

That that's the my my focus is is how do I use my experiences, what I've learned, um, how I how I view the world, uh, and equip the the next generation to um to to to run their leg.

Corie 1:41:03

Yeah, it's interesting. It's something that I've uh again, you never shy away from being vocal. Like I before you spoke about it, I never really even thought about the York not winning player of the uh player of the season.

SPEAKER_02 1:41:13

Yeah, Dwight York had not um 1999 season. I'm almost certain I'm right in saying Dwight had most goals, most assists in the Premier League, most goals, most assists in the Champions League. Did not win the Ballon d'Or, did not even win player of the year, um PFA player of the year in in England. Um I I dare anybody to explain to me how that is possible without with without um without the obvious factor. Race. I I he Dwight was 11th in the Ballon d'Or voting. There were two Manchester United players, um David Beckham and Roy Keene, who are head of him in the voting. Again, Dwight had most goals, most assists in both the league and the Champions League. And is is is 11th in voting fitted in Manchester United. That is that that's beyond me.

Corie 1:42:06

Yeah. Well, I appreciate you taking the stance on it. And I mean, uh you know, I heard Dave Chappelle saying a special one time, you know, they say when a special place for people when they're belly full, they think of us, I think is an important thing, and you continue to think of us in all these different things that we spoke about today.

SPEAKER_02 1:42:20

I listen, I think it's part of my DNA. As I mentioned, my my father was wrongfully arrested by by two police officers, and his response to that was to insert himself into a system that wronged him in an effort that others like him will no longer be wronged. And I I I just try to follow his example as best I can.

Corie 1:42:40

I appreciate it. So broadcasting is still in the future, so I it's it's it's easy, it's fun. I don't know if it's easy.

SPEAKER_02 1:42:50

So uh, so why not? I it's it's you know, I again it it it affords me uh it affords me a lot in in terms of you know staying in touch with the game, a certain level of visibility, representation uh of who we are and what we bring to the game. So uh so why not? Until until they kick out, I will just keep showing up.

Final Reflections And Thanks

Corie 1:43:10

Well, thanks very much on our behalf. Thanks very much for not just for today, but for everything that you do for all these moments that you create for us and thank you personally.

SPEAKER_02 1:43:18

Thank you very much. I I as I say, it's I've I've found an incredible grounding in in who I am and coming back to my roots. So um, if I get to represent that, um it's it's it's a blessing. Ladies and gentlemen, like that's good for that.